[ScottGem]

There are several points you are missing. The first point is one that Synnen and I have tried to make. That Christ taught tolerance and love. Not intolerance. The second point is that you should be teaching your child about tolerance and respect for others. The final point is that you need learn to respect what other's believe.

[RubyPitbull]

I don't think they understand what hell is. The way we have explained it is the worst place you could imagine.

Hi Nowwhat. I think you kind of need to reread what you wrote here. I am sure most parents explain it to their children the same way. It is hard for their minds to comprehend but they conjure up something very scary. So, yes, even though they don't really understand completely, they have a good understanding that it is a very, very bad place to be. You said that your daughter speaks out about what she believes in. So, she does believe there is a hell and that it is the worst place you can be thrust into.

Your daughter sounds like a sweet little girl. I think you are a decent person. I have not seen you force your beliefs onto anyone here. You are kind to people and dispense good advice. I notice from your posts that you have strong beliefs but you have never told me in the posts that we share, or anyone else from what I have seen, that we are going to hell because we don't embrace JC as our Lord and Saviour. You don't openly condemn us. Am I wrong about that? Please correct me if I am. I took from your posts that although you believe I (and any non-believers) am going to hell, you would never be rude and attack me for it.

I think what these people are trying to get across to you is this consideration. Yes, your daughter is 6. But she is old enough to understand the difference between right and wrong because you take the time to explain things to her, as any good parent does. You should be reiterating to her what she has been taught in Church. That is your responsibility as a parent. But, it is just taking that extra step to explain to her that even though you and she know that a non-believer is going to hell, it is hurtful to tell that to someone's face. That is what the others are trying to say here. Sometimes the things we know to be true should not be spoken out loud. Why go out of our way to point out something that is hurtful to someone. Just saying it, won't make any of us convert. It will just get us upset and angry at the person telling us that. I think you understand that. When you are talking about a 6 year old saying that to other children, that is a very scary thing for the other child to have to handle. Your daughter doesn't like to upset people or hurt their feelings. You said that she cries when she thinks she has done this. So, before another child or someone says something back to her, that might upset her, you just need to explain that sometimes it is not a good idea to tell people that they are going to hell because she will scare them and in doing this, it hurts their feelings and makes them upset. She will understand that.

[Skell]

Thank you Ruby for saying it how you did. It was perfect.

And for the record NowWhat, I share the same thoughts about you as Ruby does in her second paragraph. I truly do. That is why it was a little surprising to me to read a few of things you posted. Perhaps I over reacted but if you re-read them you may see why. If you don't then I fear I may have been wrong in my initial assumptions!

[NowWhat]

I guess I am trying to explain something and not doing a good job. My daughter has never said this to try and condemn someone or to try and make them feel bad. I don't urge her to say these things. I guess I have never told her not to say them because she is saying what I believe. But - I do not want another child to be scared. So - when the opportunity presents itself - I will tell her that maybe she shouldn't say it like that because she could scare someone. And that is not her or my intent.
I wish I could control what comes out of her mouth sometimes. Like when she was 3 and saw a man in Walmart with a patch on his eye and she screams out "ahoy me hardy" (from the wiggles TV show - captain feathersword) - I could have crawled under a rock.
Or when she told my mother-in-law this weekend that my husband didn't like his dad (they are divorced - so she gets it) but still.. I could go on with the comments that are made that she doesn't even think about. I mean, they made a TV show out of nothing other than what comes out of kids mouths. (Kids say the darndest things)

I do not push my beliefs on other people. I feel strongly about what I believe and wish that everyone could know God the way I do. I think that it is sad if you aren't saved because you will miss out on the reward of heaven. Saying that - if you don't believe - that is your choice. I am not going to sit here and say you are terrible. I am just not that person. The only time I really go into "attack" mode is when my parenting comes into question. Just because I try to do the best I can. And EVERY decision I make with this child is over analyized. I am fearful that I will make a mistake and we all know we don't get do-overs in parenting. So - I do go on the defensive when it comes to parenting. That is really the only subject that I would "attack" someone. And then there is the married man subject - but I try not to judge.
I will not condemn anyone - because I am so far from perfect - I don't have the right.
But - I am not going to shy away from teaching my daughter about God or any other things I feel are important. If I don't teach her - who will?

[Allheart]

Hi Nowwhat - I like the others have found you to be wonderful on this site and your daughter sounds like a little sweetheart, good for you. Personally, if I were you, I would take my little girl out of that school and place her in a religious school where prayer is allowed. I would be furious that they told my little girl she could not pray quietly to herself before she had her lunch. How dare they! What they should have done was called you at home and asked you to talk with your daughter about praying and how others may be offended or hurt or whatever someone would be in hearing a little girl pray. For God sake, they made a little girl feel like she was doing something bad because she was praying? And you wish to have them teach about God to our children, NO THANKS. That lesson should be done at home. Period. Nowwhat, I would seriously consider have your little girl attend a religious school.

To me, today's problems originate at home. Sorry, I really hate to say that, because I know that parents are trying so hard, parents are so tired. I am not a parent, but I see them coming into work even before the sun rises, just so little Johnny can have everything that they didn't have growing up. It just breaks my heart. There is a very nice guy in work who just had a little baby. His wife has to go back to work when the baby is 6 weeks old. I asked who will be watching the little baby, he answered that they are putting the 6 week old baby in daycare. Does that not break your heart? I felt so terrible for him, for his wife and for the little baby.

Now here is where most of you will get upset at me. But it is how I feel and shame on me for feeling this way, with not being a parent. There is no way shape form that I would leave the schools teach my child anything but their studies. Morals? Religion? Sorry, that would be my job and my job alone. The schools should expect to receive little children in the morning who have been taught right versus wrong before they enter the school door, so the teacher will be able to conduct the days teachings without having to be a babysitter or disaplinarian. Personally, if I did have children, I would not send them to public school. I would send little cutie Allheart right to Catholic school, because I would want her to pray during the day, I would want what I teach at home to be followed through during her or his day, but I would never expect the public schools to teach about God. I would love for God to be present in the public schools, for some sort of general prayer, to get the children's day started, but because of all the diversity and all the various forms of religion, and for those who don't practice any, I guess that would become more of a negative, then the beautiful positive it could potentially be.

I think most of our problems here started when no one was home. When both parents are running out the door off to work and little Johnny is being dropped off somewhere at 5 am.
I know people will get upset at me for saying that, but I am only making an observation.
Parents see little Johnny for maybe 2 to 3 hours a day and the parents are just plum tired. Oh, I know it's quality not quantity. If I was forced to pinpoint when things started to detoriate, bam, I would have to say, there's your starting point.

I say bring back the days, where Moms stayed home, Dads went out to work to bring home the bacon and little Johnny was at home listening intently to the lessons that Mom was teaching him about right and wrong. I think bringing back those days would make a world of difference.

**And now Allheart is going to run and hide as I know folks will get upset at my above suggestion**, but I would love to hear what all of you think about it, but do it with love, okay:D

[Tuscany]

Wow.
I am so going to hell I guess. I believe in God and in my religon, but I don't believe in belittling others for their choice of God. And my God says that he loves all equally. Pretty much Syn and I are on the same page.

Guess I will be in hell with a lot of other people. But hey the way I look at it is if there are going to be that many people in hell then we are set. Someone has to know how to turn the air conditioning on, others must be into construction and can build us homes, still others are Drs and will keep us healthy. Me... I'll educate the masses.

[Allheart]

Wow.
I am so going to hell I guess. I believe in God and in my religon, but I don't believe in belittling others for thier choice of God. And my God says that he loves all equally. Pretty much Syn and I are on the same page.

Guess I will be in hell with a lot of other people. But hey the way I look at it is if there are going to be that many people in hell then we are set. Someone has to know how to turn the air conditioning on, others must be into construction and can build us homes, still others are Drs and will keep us healthy. Me...I'll educate the masses.

Tuscany,

I am right there with you as well. I do love my faith, but that is only because it fits me, like a good shoe. It's perfect for ME, it's what I know and love, but surely is not THE faith. I could never imagine feeling that way nor telling another they are going to hell if they don't... blah blah blah.

Heaven help us :) LOL ( that's meant as a funny people :).

[NeedKarma]

And you wish to have them teach about God to our children, NO THANKS. That lesson should be done at home. Period. Nowwhat, I would seriously consider have your little girl attend a religious school.

To me, today's problems originate at home.

Totally agree with you there.

There is a very nice guy in work who just had a little baby. His wife has to go back to work when the baby is 6 weeks old. I asked who will be watching the little baby, he answered that they are putting the 6 week old baby in daycare. Does that not break your heart? I felt so terrible for him, for his wife and for the little baby.

I agreee that 6 weeks is way too early. But don't feel terrible for them, they are trying to get by. Feel worse for Nowwhat raising a bigot.

Now here is where most of you will get upset at me. But it is how I feel and shame on me for feeling this way, with not being a parent. There is no way shape form that I would leave the schools teach my child anything but their studies. Morals? Religion? Sorry, that would be my job and my job alone. The schools should expect to receive little children in the morning who have been taught right versus wrong before they enter the school door, so the teacher will be able to conduct the days teachings without having to be a babysitter or disaplinarian.

You are dead on there.

I think most of our problems here started when no one was home. When both parents are running out the door off to work and little Johnny is being dropped off somewhere at 5 am.
I know people will get upset at me for saying that, but I am only making an observation.
Parents see little Johnny for maybe 2 to 3 hours a day and the parents are just plum tired. Oh, I know it's quality not quantity. If I was forced to pinpoint when things started to detoriate, bam, I would have to say, there's your starting point.

I say bring back the days, where Moms stayed home, Dads went out to work to bring home the bacon and little Johnny was at home listening intently to the lessons that Mom was teaching him about right and wrong. I think bringing back those days would make a world of difference.

I don't know of ANY parents who drop their kids off at 5 a.m.; perhaps you made a gross exageration to make a point? You may be a little young to fully understand that times have changed in the work world. No longer is there job security or the great benefits that existed 2 generations ago. Most couples must work to get by. The U.S. has become an increasingly comsumerist society where the appearance of wealth has taken an unprecedented priority. So much so that most American families are wallowing under crushing personal debt. Now the parents really need to work longer hours et. you can see the vicious circle there. To me THAT is the problem that has negatively affected parenting.

**And now Allheart is going to run and hide as I know folks will get upset at my above suggestion**, but I would love to hear what all of you think about it, but do it with love, okay:D

I hope I did OK. :)

[Allheart]

LOL feeling the love NK -

You did really well and great points. But sadly, there are children dropped off at 5 am (at people's homes, not official Daycare. ) The work day over here seems to start earlier and earlier because you are right, we here in America just never stop wanting. Bigger houses, better cars, far away vacations. If we were able to cut that out, then maybe two people wouldn't have to work? I'm asking as I am not sure myself.

Now here is where I will get clunked on the head... you are SO right about job security. It's just awful. I really feel for these young kids starting today. This is only a question, would there by more jobs available and would job security be better, if it was mainly only men in the workplace? I'm only asking as to trying to find solutions and wishing for days gone by...

[Allheart]

p.s. NK, believe it or not I am probably older than you think ( 44) just my mind hasn't caught up with me yet :). Does anyone know when that actually happens :).

[NeedKarma]

That's an interesting question. I'm not sure of the cause/effect relationship between women entering the workforce and the decline in job security. Unfortunately that cat is out of the bag and will never be reversed except on a couple by couple case. Personally I love the fact that my wife is well-educated and has a good job (lawyer). I always loved smart women. I don't wish for days gone by, I wish I won the lottery so that I could work 6 months of the year and spend the rest of the time with the wife and kids travelling and doing stuff together.

[Allheart]

That's really nice NK and I hope you win that lottery!!

I still would much rather be back in the day. Life seemed simpilier and happier. Grant you people struggled back then as well, but there was a pride factor and a hard work ethic in place. Now we all are looking for everything so fast and to me, so much is getting lost along the way.

[RubyPitbull]

p.s. NK, beleive it or not I am probably older than you think ( 44) just my mind hasn't caught up with me yet :). Does anyone know when that actually happens :).

It happens when the bones start to ache and you suddenly realize you aren't able to do the things you used to do.

AH, I agree completely with you.

NK, I think Nowwhat understands what I am saying and will correct the situation at home. Her intention is not to raise a bigot at all. I think it has more to do with timing and recognizing that her daughter understands a lot more at this age than NW realizes.

Nowwhat, I understand completely what you are saying about stuff coming out of kids mouths. It is hard not to laugh sometimes AND half the time you do want to jump in a hole when they say something embarrassing. Parenting is not easy. Kids just say whatever is on their minds. Personally, I think that is the greatest thing about them. They are so untouched by sarcasm, skepticism, and all the other stuff we eventually grow into. But, this is the time that you can start explaining the right and wrong, and the consequences of stating what is on her mind. Like, the man with the eye patch. Explaining that she watches a TV show, but in real life, not everyone is a pirate and the doctor makes the man wear the eyepatch because his eye has been hurt. So, the man is very unhappy he has to wear an eyepatch because no one understands that he isn't really a pirate and it hurts his feelings. Or, explaining to her about the situation with your Father in Law. Hey, we don't always know all the right words to explain it at the time it is happening, but usually we are presented with a situation at some point that is a perfect example that she WILL understand. It is just a matter of being watchful for those situations when they present themselves. It is recognizing that everything that happens in our lives have the potential to become important life lessons for your daughter.

[ScottGem]

I guess I am trying to explain something and not doing a good job. My daughter has never said this to try and condemn someone or to try and make them feel bad. I don't urge her to say these things. I guess I have never told her not to say them because she is saying what I believe. But - I do not want another child to be scared.

Ok, now you are getting the point. I will say, like the others, I was a bit surprised by your stance here. From previous posts, I did not get that you were that type of person. What I think went on here is that your pride in your daughter (justifiable) and your strong religious beliefs led you to not consider fully the consequences of your daughter's actions. I think we have helped you see the potential consequences. I think you will be protecting your daughter if you can teach her some diplomacy.

But - I am not going to shy away from teaching my daughter about God or any other things I feel are important. If I don't teach her - who will?

And no one is asking you to. All we are asking is that, along, with those teachings you include instruction on how to interact with others and that certain things should be kept private. I would also suggest that an emphasis should be placed on teaching what Christ stood for. Love, tolerance, respect, consideration and those values make a much more positive and potent message then promoting the punishments of non-belief. Isn't it better to teach a child (or anyone for matter) that being a good person and treating people fairly and with consideration is its own reward, then teaching them to believe a certain way or you will be punished?

[Allheart]

And no one is asking you to. All we are asking is that, along, with those teachings you include instruction on how to interact with others and that certain things should be kept private. I would also suggest that an emphasis should be placed on teaching what Christ stood for. Love, tolerance, respect, consideration and those values make a much more positive and potent message then promoting the punishments of non-belief. Isn't it better to teach a child (or anyone for matter) that being a good person and treating people fairly and with consideration is its own reward, then teaching them to believe a certain way or you will be punished?

Could this be said any better? Just beautiful Scott. So worth repeating... just perfect.

[Tuscany]

I love the fact that I am a woman in the workforce. But, I sometimes wonder what it will be like when I have kids. My mom was a stay at home mom until I was in 4th grade. I sometimes think that that is what I want to do. But, then I worry that I will be bored at home (I know moms don't laugh at me).

[RubyPitbull]

You won't be bored at home Tuscany. It is all in how you approach it. Personally, I feel one parent should be home for the first 5 years of a child's life. But that is me. To me, those are the years that they are like sponges and their personalities are formed, and you have the most influence. There is always something new every day to see what your child has discovered how to do. I understand that people have financial needs, but all of this should be planned out. I would hate having anyone else teach my child the basics. Once they are in school full time, that is when our work lives can get back on track.

Just my opinion. Along with that sterilization thingy I mentioned earlier. Take it all with a grain of salt. Add a margarita to it if you like.

[Allheart]

Early on I didn't mind being in the workforce, I actually LOVED what I did and I guess do.
But I guess I just see so much and wish things were different.

My Mom had to go to work. There were 5 of us and my parents were divorced. I used to love to go to my friends house. It was just such a nice feeling having their Moms home.

Please for all you wonderful women who contribute amazing things to this world, I more than respect and admire what you do. There are times I am actually speechless at work at some of the powerful and incredible women I have the honor to work with and for.

I just wonder what we would look like today if more women were home. It's just a curiosity that I have.

I do however, admire strong powerful women. Both my Mom and Grandmom are/were the most strongest women I have ever met. Oh anyway, I hope none of our wonderful women out there take any offense. I just do have that knawing curiosity.

[NeedKarma]

Tuscany,
Your worries are valid. I think my wife is that way. I took 4 months parental leave for our first because she was a little overwhelmed and I wanted to bond with my little one. For our second she took the full year (god I love Canada). Our daycare is in a home with 3 other kids and the lady is wonderful. We drop off at 8:20 and pick up at 4:30.

Ruby,
Absolutely correct that the first 5 years are crucial. I took a Developmental Psychology course when I was 18 and was fascinated by it.

[Synnen]

I would NEVER want it to go back to the days of no women in the workforce, or of women staying home to raise the kids while their men supported them.

What of the women who never marry? Should they be blocked out of the "man's world" of working because they don't have kids? Or the women--like me--without kids? Plus... women are marrying later and later. I LOVE the idea of being able to support yourself so that you aren't settling for whatever man comes along to get you out of your parents' house.

Women have worked too long and too hard (haha.. love the pun) for equality to have it be set back 50 years.

Depending on a couples' education level, though... some couples CAN make it work so that one partner stays home with the kids while the other works. I probably have an equal number of friends where the guy stays home as I have friends where the woman is at home.

My husband and I have already started figuring out how we can budget everything so that when and if we do have kids, we'll be able to have one of us stay home to raise them, at least until they are school-aged.

While I would LOVE to stay at home and cook and clean and watch soaps and eat bonbons... frankly, there's no way we'd ever afford a home of our own, or a new car, or going to a movie if I did! His paycheck pays for the essentials. My paycheck is split between perks (like name brand mac'n'cheese and GOOD coffee) and going into savings for a house, new furniture, a new car--BIG purchases.

Could we live without that stuff? Sure, we could. Should we have to? Absolutely not.