[jlisenbe]

What about the rapists and burglars and murderers and arsonists, etc. who have no knowledge of God's authority and His will? And the many who were born with a mental illness lurking?

"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [l]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident [m]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Equally as important, what about all of those you listed who do have knowledge of God's authority and His will?

[waltero]

rather than being clearly taught.

Being taught nonetheless. In fact, I would believe the Jews understand more about the righteousness of God, and man's sinfulness than most believers. And if you understand that We are in the time of the Gentiles (aka the time of Grace)? Upon Jesus's return, the time of grace will (be over) revert back to the Jews (but that is neither here nor there). There are two sides, one is Physical and the other is Spiritual.. believe what you will.

But the fact still remains, they are still being taught to this day...the same Jesus (unbeknownst to them..."Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you...") and the same God.

The great emphasis of the OT is the law of Moses, a means of salvation which proved to be impossible

Only Jesus proved it was not impossible. People who have God’s law and those who have never heard of the law are all the same when they sin. Those who do not have the law and are sinners will be lost. And, in the same way, people who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law.

@ WG: I know it really bothers you not knowing about those who are mentally deficient or those who haven't heard the Word. The Bible tells us not to worry about that. We are to love them the same as Jesus loves us. We are called to love all people the same as Jesus loves. We can love, but our love is nothing in comparison to God's love.

God Loves Jesus - What is that? I mean what does that really mean? So God loves Jesus - Big deal...I mean *He is God*. Are we saying God loves himself? God shows his, great, love for His Son, through the love that we have for His Son. The love that he has given to us...that love being Jesus. by Giving us that same love, (through Jesus) that we give to Jesus. We are God's love. God doesn't love Humankind. He loves his Son (who do we love?). The Bible teaches us that this is all for Jesus. Everything that has been created has been created For Jesus...And we (those who choose life) are in Jesus aka God's great love...for us!

The world is an intricate web of interrelations, such that objects no longer have their own individual existence independent from other objects

[jlisenbe]

In fact, I would believe the Jews understand more about the righteousness of God, and man's sinfulness than most believers.

Not sure why you would believe that.

We are God's love. God doesn't love Humankind.

Not real sure what your first sentence (We are God's love) means. Maybe you could expand on that one a bit. The second statement is not true at all. Of course God loves "humankind". John 3:16 is a clear statement about that, and it's hard to imagine how it could be any more plainly stated. Romans 3:21-25 also makes the case plainly.

The Bible teaches us that this is all for Jesus. Everything that has been created has been created For Jesus...And we (those who choose life) are in Jesus aka God's great love...for us!

I think that's a good comment.

As for the mentally deficient, that will be placed in God's hands, and he can be trusted to do what is right.

[waltero]

It does? Where?

Seek and yee will find...don't Worry, don't be scared, don't be afraid...God has it all under control. Everybody (even you) is right where their supposed to be...don't worry about it.

We are God's love

I thought I explained it pretty well.

The second statement is not true at all. Of course God loves "humankind". John 3:16 is a clear statement about that

Is it? When you read it in it's proper context (We went over this once before).

Look at the Greek if it will help.
Context: You (we) need to look at the preceding verses 14 and 15. “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” God provided a way of escape. Thus, in the same way . . . . . . v 16. Loved: past tense. (Not “loves”) Agape love – a love of action, that responds to a need.

That's why Jesus never talked about the love of God (same in Acts) in public. He only talked about the love of God with His disciples. Why talk about the love of God when nobody can understand love, what love is, or where it comes from? I think that is what Jesus was talking about when he said; "Do not cast your pearls before swine." I was watching a video, and somebody posted a comment saying; This is unconditional love at its finest...where do you think they got that from?

We need God's love in order to "Love." What is that love? That would be Jesus. We need Jesus in order to love... more than that, we need Jesus's love in order to gain that same love that God has for his Son (God's love)...that same love that he gave to us (which is the Christ) we give back to God through Jesus. That is what makes God's love for his one and only Son so Special...being one in Jesus, we receive that same love. We have never loved God. We never asked for God's love in order to love him...It takes God's love in order for us to love Jesus. How does God show his love for his one and only Son? He shows it with the love he gave to us through our savior Jesus.


Our love is the one and the same love that he gave to us by sending Jesus...he sent his love to us. That same love that God adorns Jesus with (the love he gives to us sinners), Jesus, in turn, gives back to God (Circular reasoning).

We shall love God with all our Hearts, all our minds, all our strength, etc. etc. A commandment that is Impossible for us to fulfill. God has done it for us in the life and love of Jesus Christ. I'm sorry but God doesn't love all of Humanity (as we know it). Jesus brought us peace with God. Jesus loves all the people of the World. God in fact is angry with the world. Believe in Jesus and His love will shine through the darkness. If you don't understand - maybe think about all of Humanity being in one body...that of Jesus the Christ.

[jlisenbe]

Seek and yee will find...don't Worry, don't be scared, don't be afraid...God has it all under control. Everybody (even you) is right where their supposed to be...don't worry about it.

You took five words from the Bible and then just added your own thoughts. That's a dangerous habit you have. And the five words you actually quoted ("Seek and yee will find") have nothing to do with the question, and that's another dangerous habit you have. Just tossing out a word salad is not really giving a serious answer.

Look at the Greek if it will help.
Context: You (we) need to look at the preceding verses 14 and 15. “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” God provided a way of escape. Thus, in the same way . . . . . . v 16. Loved: past tense. (Not “loves”) Agape love – a love of action, that responds to a need.

I've looked at it in the Greek several times. Guess what? It reads the same way in Greek as it does in English. "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son." I just don't see how this could be any plainer. God loves sinners in the sense that, by sacrificing His only Son, He has made provision for them to not only be saved from the day of his wrath, but to enter into the eternal joys of heaven with Him. There is no love any purer or more beautiful than that.

This is from Young's Literal Translation. Tell me how this helps your cause. "for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during."

The love of God for sinners can also be seen in Luke 6:35, John 13:34, and Romans 5:8.

[waltero]

Sometimes I'm not sure why you say; "where did you find that in the Bible"? I think we all know what Jesus said when he referred to Worry. Jesus even mentioned "Don't worry." I feel as though you are testing me. I don't feel like playing that game.


Main Points For/so : These are link words expanding or explaining something that was said earlier. We need to look at the preceeding verses 14 and 15. “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”

It is not "God Soooo loved." It is "God So loved" (as in verses 14 and 15) the world - . And if you look at the word "Loved" (past tense). And if you look in the World (Churches) today, you would see it is all messed up. Largely because Of that one Verse. John 3:16 seems to have summed up the entire Bible. Go ahead and read the Bible verses you posted, they all pertain to Jesus. Might I point out -Have you not read - Nobody knows the Father but the Son. How is one going to know the Father of Jesus much less The Father's love? Yes, God loves the People of the World...But only through Jesus. JESUS is the Father's love that he sends (if we ask) us...We express the Father's love that he bestows toward Jesus.

You can see what your Idea of love has done to the World today. What does It matter if God Loves Jesus? How is His love for Jesus any greater than his love for anybody or anything else? So you say God loves sinners? Big deal, right? In what way does he love sinners? In the way of him sending his love (Son) into a world of sinners. The only person who knows or experiences the Love of the Father is Jesus. In Order for us to truly know of the Father's love (at all) we must know Jesus. Once we know of Jesus, we have a choice to accept God's love or Reject the love of Jesus. if we were to reject God's love, we would never know God's love, and his love (which is Jesus) would have never known us.

A natural Father loves his Child for no other reason than it is his Child. God Loves his Son, in whom all of creation resides. We Sinners are his creation and it is our love expressed towered Jesus that the Father shows his love for his Son. In the same way, God shows his love for us sinners by sending his love (Jesus) to us sinners. Not all sinners are going to want to receive God's love...those who do not will never know love or what it is like to feel true love.

God is our inheritance means that God is our possession, our treasure, and our enjoyment. It also means that all God has promised us in salvation is being reserved for us in heaven. However, God does not inherit our natural being, but only what He has wrought into us of Himself. We are God's love and that is all we should ever express.

[jlisenbe]

Walter, you said a lot in this statement. "Seek and yee will find...don't Worry, don't be scared, don't be afraid...God has it all under control. Everybody (even you) is right where their supposed to be...don't worry about it." Not worrying is one I would completely agree with, but suggesting that everyone is right where they are supposed to be is a different story. The stories of people being disobedient to God fill the Bible. They were certainly not where they were supposed to be.

It is not "God Soooo loved." It is "God So loved" (as in verses 14 and 15) the world

As in verses 14 and 15? Where do you see the word "love" in those two verses? And the whole thing of "soooo" versus "so" is, to me, just silliness.

Might I point out -Have you not read - Nobody knows the Father but the Son.

Might I point out that you were careless in your quote. The full quote says, "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." So yes, we can know the Father.

God is our inheritance means that God is our possession, our treasure, and our enjoyment. It also means that all God has promised us in salvation is being reserved for us in heaven. However, God does not inherit our natural being, but only what He has wrought into us of Himself. We are God's love and that is all we should ever express.

This is very good, and especially the underlined sentence. I love that sentiment.

Walter, you need to know that I am very careful in my choices of words. I try to be precise as much as I can in expressing my thoughts. So when you say, "We are God's love," I really don't know what you mean. We are certainly the objects of God's love, but I don't think you can say that we ARE God's love.

[waltero]

I try to be precise as much as I can in expressing my thoughts.

Maybe that is why you don't understand a word I said. What is it to know the Father?
Nobody would know the Father, or understand the Love that the Father has For his son['s]. The only way we get to know (love) the Father is through Jesus. We will continue to know jack all unless the Father gives us the Love that is needed to love him. we get that love only through his one and only son. It is not our love, it is Jesus's love for us that we are able to love the Father. Jesus's love for us is the same love God gives to his son['s]...otherwise, Otherwise, God would only love his son as all earthly fathers love their sons and Daughters. We know that love...But we don't know God's love...we will never know what it is about God's love that makes it differ from our love...Until Jesus enters our lives. It's all one and the same Love, bundled up in one person.

Our love for God is [that same] love we receive for him and his Son...That's what love is...It all belongs to God. Give Back to Jesus the love God gives to you. When you "love" your enemies, it is not you loving them it is Jesus. When you love your Wife, it is not you loving her, it is Jesus. When you love a homosexual, it is not your love...it is the love that comes from knowing Jesus that came from God.

We are like clay jars in which this treasure is stored. The real power comes from God and not from us.

The Power is Love. Not that you are to love everybody as you know love. But to love everybody as Jesus loved us...Giving your (which is actually his at that point) life if necessary.

I don't know if you remember a while back when I posted John 3:16. I mentioned what I mentioned here, and a poster that we all know and love, said: That would mean my life's work is Useless! That was exactly what I was talking about (thank you poster, But you all didn't understand any more than you do now)!!!!!

It's not about how much God loves you or how you strive to love your brothers and Sisters...That seems to be the way most Christians look and feel when reading John 3:16. That is not at all what John was saying. Also; I think Dividing the Bible up into verses might play a bigger part part in that...Bigger than we could ever realize.

Please reread before you respond. I've spent Mucho time editing. Thank you.

[jlisenbe]

Maybe that is why you don't understand a word I said.

How would me taking care with my choice of words have anything at all to do with trying to understand you???

If you will ponder this with even a smidgen of care, you will begin to see why your comments can be hard to understand.

We are like clay jars in which this treasure is stored. The real power comes from God and not from us.

Aim for this level of clarity every time and you will have more success. This is well said and on target.

[waltero]

[QUOTE]

How would me taking care with my choice of words have anything at all to do with trying to understand you???

Same reason The disciples didn't understand a single word Jesus was saying. If you will ponder this with even a smidgen of care, you will begin to see why my comments can be hard to understand.

I don't know. It might have something to do with one of Us having Book smarts and the other through experience. I never understood why people feel they must go to seminary school to be an ordained minister. It's like saying; I want to feed the poor...I'd better go take a cooking class.

Yes, I understand it is hard to explain how all this (all of Creation) is simply an expression of God's love. Jesus receiving his expression and us being the recipients...which in turn (if you know that we are in Jesus and he is in us) Jesus gaining more than just an expression...Jesus gaining true love, as well as us gaining that same true love... Jesus being that true love, us receiving....round and round it goes. We enter into the fullness of the Godhead through love...So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

All for the Love Of his Son ['s]. God's word is love...we along with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are a culmination of God's love. If God be love, we be that love (word choice :-) too.

[Wondergirl]

It's stream of consciousness. From dictionary.com:

"a literary style in which a character's thoughts, feelings, and reactions are depicted in a continuous flow uninterrupted by objective description or conventional dialogue. James Joyce, Virginia Woolf, and Marcel Proust are among its notable early exponents."

[jlisenbe]

Same reason The disciples didn't understand a single word Jesus was saying. If you will ponder this with even a smidgen of care, you will begin to see why my comments can be hard to understand.

I assure you that I have been able to see that for quite some time. It has something to do with things like this. " If God be love, we be that love (word choice :-) too."

As to your experience, I've been a Christian for 45 years. I wouldn't count too much on your experience being able to prevail. And that's not to say I don't honor it, but it still all comes back to knowing the Word by the Spirit of God.

[waltero]

Jesus was born of a Virgin. Anybody born of sinful Nature will indubitably Sin. Had Jesus been Born of Mans sinful nature, He would have sinned and there would be no redeemer. Philippians 2:6–8 describes Jesus setting aside His divine privileges as God to take on the likeness of the humans He had created (see also John 1:3). However, Jesus did not have an earthly father, so He did not inherit a sin nature as all other human beings do (Luke 1:35).

When I mention the Carnal mind, what I mean by that is. If you are an allegorist, then you have it set in your mind that this is not true (this being the Word of God), in turn, you will miss other truths, being that you don't believe this or that previous verse. It's like When JL said I was a Calvinist (I don't know what a Calvinist believes in...Did Calvin know he was a Calvinist?) in that sense, he (JL) is liable to subject his understanding of a particular Verse, it not being "(his" belief) and in turn, ignore other verses as they were meant to be taken. You might be looking at the surface.

@JL, what is the difference between John 3:16 and John 1:14? “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” In regards to tis Vers, you exclaimed, "The Bible is Not the Word he is talking about." You gave no explanation, you simply spoke it as you knew it to be...The difference is you. You got it in your Carnal mind that - John 3:16 and John 1:14 can not be.

As well as WG: Certainly God can have stones cry out...But WG doesn't believe that to be the case. The phrase "if they do not cry out, the very stones will" is a quote from the Bible, specifically Luke 19:40. It is said by Jesus in response to the Pharisees telling him to silence his followers for proclaiming him the King of glory. Jesus is saying that if his followers were to be silenced, the stones would immediately cry out.

[Wondergirl]

The Virgin Mary was not sinless.

[jlisenbe]

@JL, what is the difference between John 3:16 and John 1:14? “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” In regards to tis Vers, you exclaimed, "The Bible is Not the Word he is talking about." You gave no explanation, you simply spoke it as you knew it to be...The difference is you. You got it in your Carnal mind that - John 3:16 and John 1:14 can not be.

I gave no explanation? I most certainly did. I told you that when Jesus walked the earth, he was not a paper and ink book broken into chapters and verses. I guess you think he was. Go figure.

As to the two passages in John and how are they different? One describes the love of God leading to the sacrifice of Christ which makes our salvation through faith possible. The other describes the nature of Jesus and the reaction of John to His appearing on earth. I suggest you do some research on the Greek work "logos" in order to understand the meaning of the 1:14 passge.

The Virgin Mary was not sinless.

Well said, WG. However, Walter's point is that the sin nature is passed on through the father. Jesus did not have an earthly father, so he would not have inherited that. There are some reasons to believe that, but I don't know that it's all crystal clear.

[waltero]

The Virgin Mary was not sinless

. I'm not saying she was sinless. Then why did Jesus have to be born of a Vergin?

In the same way as God declared us Holy, Mary was Holy. Why didn't God Just Fill a man with the Holy Spirit and have him impregnate Mary? Jesus was not Born out of Sin! Anybody, everybody who is Born of a sinful nature will sin. There is no other compramise.

How does one explain that God is in a book, in pages? It's the Spirit of the Word. The Ten Commandments were etched in stone. Jesus was the Rock that spewed out water for the Israelites to drink. Jesus Is the Manna that came down from heaven, God's word is alive...the living Word. Stop thinking of it as your flesh.

[jlisenbe]

So Jesus is also a door? He is also the light that comes from lightbulbs? If a person tears a page out of his Bible and burns it, then he has burned God? When Moses broke the tablets, was he breaking Jesus? Since the tock that put forth water was literally Jesus, then is Jesus still in the wilderness?

How does one explain that God is in a book, in pages?

One cannot.

[Wondergirl]

So Jesus is also a door? He is also the light that comes from lightbulbs? If a person tears a page out of his Bible and burns it, then he has burned God? When Moses broke the tablets, was he breaking Jesus? Since the tock that put forth water was literally Jesus, then is Jesus still in the wilderness?

Symbolic.

[jlisenbe]

Symbolic.

Exactly.

[waltero]

WOW, I didn't realize you were so far off. THE LIVING WORD! What is it you don't understand? Is there any reason why the Jews have given themselves over to their Scripture? Same With Christians. Same with being filled with the Holy Spirit.

The disciples didn't know the scripture. So how is it that once they were filled with the Holy Spirit, it brought the scriptures to life? We also have the book of life. You really should seek the spirit of the word. the life-giving spirit of the word.