[jlisenbe]

That's the problem with this forum and the two of you. You are simply looking for an argument. I'd like to stay on subject. is that ok? Soon (as always) the two of you will go off half-blistered on an entirely different tangent.

You have made an accusation. I just want to know what you mean by it, or if you even know what you mean. But if it's going to make you angry, then just let it go.

[waltero]

@JL: I simply can't talk two different subjects to two different people.

Don't you understand? We have already made our choice... Adam and Eve made the choice for us.
What? You didn't get a say? Sin already made that choice for you. We were given a choice, we made our choice, and not to be given another choice.

A person might have to Woo God, it is all up to him now. It is God's choice who he wishes to spend all eternity with him in his World. God gave Man the Earth and everything in it. Man gave it over to sin and in turn death. Mans and his world are gonna die. Man can choose life. But it is the life of Christ that rules God's kingdom.

[Wondergirl]

Don't you understand? We have already made our choice... Adam and Eve made the choice for us.
What? You didn't get a say? Sin already made that choice for you.

You can choose to shoot and kill your noisy neighbor. Or you can choose to sit down with him and discuss the situation. Two choices. You have the freedom, the free will, to choose one or the other. Or even think of a third or fourth choice.

[jlisenbe]

Neither of you is making a appeal to Scripture.

[Wondergirl]

Neither of you is making a appeal to Scripture.

Genesis 1-3

[waltero]

WG: Yes, you have Choice. God has no Choice!!!!

Those whom God chooses have no choice!

Take Mathew for instance; Jesus said; "come follow me." Do you actually think Mathew had a choice?
Why can you not see that free will was in effect before the fall. after the fall there is no more free will. we don't choose God, he chooses us.

The Human race had its chance and we lost it. We lost it All!

End of story.

JL, you missed the boat.

[jlisenbe]

Ahhh...Walter is a Calvinist.

WG, just tossing a few chapters out there is not an appeal to scripture. You have to get more specific than that. Walter could appeal to a number of specific passages.

[Wondergirl]

Ahhh...Walter is a Calvinist.

How did you find out ? Also, he's 23.

WG, just tossing a few chapters out there is not an appeal to scripture.

That's where this free will discussion started from.

[waltero]

@WG: Jesus was not capable of sinning. If Jesus was to sin, we would never know it as sin, because he is God and the life of God. Who's going to call what God does sin? would you dare?!? The fact that you miss that is everything.

[jlisenbe]

WG, this is what I mean by being specific.

Galatians 5:13. You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

Paul certainly indicates that the Galatians had free will to choose to either indulge the flesh in foolishness or serve each other in love.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Jesus here tells us that "anyone" can choose to do the will of God.

How did you find out ?

"Those whom God chooses have no choice!"

[Wondergirl]

@WG: Jesus was not capable of sinning. If Jesus was to sin, we would never know it as sin, because he is God and the life of God. Who's going to call what God does sin? would you dare?!? The fact that you miss that is everything.

Jesus was true God and true man. Bring true man, He could choose to sin. And that's what gave Him the final victory over sin for us -- He never gave in to sin.

Satan even took Him into the wilderness and tempted Him (Matt. 4:1-11), hoping He would sin, but Jesus chose not to.

[waltero]

Satan even took Him into the wilderness

You are missing one key point. It was not Satan that led Jesus into the wilderness. It was only after Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit that he was led (by the Holy Spirit) into the wilderness to be tempted.

He could choose to sin.

Yes he very well could have. But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

That's what gave Him the final victory over sin for us -- He never gave in to sin.

Do you even know what you are saying?

[waltero]

I pray hevenly Father, that you open WG's mind so that she might see the truth and the light of your everlasting Grace...Amen.

Satan even took Him into the wilderness and tempted Him (Matt. 4:1-11), hoping He would sin, but Jesus chose not to.
And that's what gave Him the final victory over sin for us

Not exactly. Not for us...But for Sin itself. Otherwise what you are saying is; Humanity can overcome Sin by simply choosing not to give in to temptation. The fact of the matter is, that Jesus had to die in order for us to achieve final victory over sin. Jesus is teaching us how to die...he is not teaching us (so to speak) how to overcome sin, he has already done that, for us. Maybe he is teaching us how to become Christians.

The Temptation of Christ; Jesus defeated Sin (how...the Holy Scriptures)...The Word of God is true life and the word of Satan is death in sin. Proving that the Holy Scriptures are still intact and the exact representation of the body of Christ Jesus...unerring. Jesus is the living Word. And the Word became flesh. The Word of God is alive and well. Not Man nor Saten can come close to touching the Word of life (aka Bible/God). Did Satan Touch Jesus? I mean did Satan influence Jesus...The Word of God is untouchable...Sin can't touch it. The Bible is beyond error. You must believe that!

[jlisenbe]

If the Bible is beyond error, then why is it you don't quote it? I'm sure you mean well, but your posts are along the lines of, "Thus sayeth Walter". At some point you must appeal to the Word. That is all that matters. What does the Bible teach us?

For instance, you posted, "Yes he very well could have (sinned). But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit." But how do you know that is true? Is it just your own opinion, or does the Bible teach that? And I'm not saying you're wrong, but it leaves us hanging since it is unsupported by Scripture. For all we know, perhaps you are thinking with your carnal mind.

[waltero]

"Yes he very well could have (sinned).

This was said for the sake of argument. For WG's benefit. I Don't believe he had any Sin in him, So he was incapable of sinning (although he did have choice...choice, meaning; he truly knew what sin is and who it cames from.).

But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Because Jesus had two natures, neither of which consisted sin (after his death might be a different story?). I know it is true because the Holy Spirit can not sin. And if that same Spirit dwells in you, it (not so much you. having less of you and more of Jesus) will be considered (by God) as if you have never sinned. We know we are sinners. We, now, know that one day heaven will be full of sinners. When that day (whence we are in heaven) comes it will be different. Different in the way that - we will know of sin but are no longer sinners, taking on the mind (likeness) Of God, as if we have never sinned. all sin, all thought of sin, the sin nature will be nonexistent. nobody will know any different than God himself. You will have never known of yourself as a sinner. It might be as simple as us knowing we were once darkness and God has brought the light into our lives... to praise his name for all eternity, for the light of life that Jesus (as in God) has brought into our lives. It's almost as if God added to himself. He is now friends with the darkness (hello darkness my old friend).

The Bible mentions God as light, no darkness at all. But often times when God comes around, he is surrounded by darkness.
Darkness is as light to him. it seems that my Carnal mind might have gotten the better of me...I don't yet know for certain.

[jlisenbe]

"Yes he very well could have (sinned). But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit." But how do you know that is true? Is it just your own opinion, or does the Bible teach that?

You are basically back to, "Thus sayeth Walter." Look at Peter's sermon in Acts 2. His appeal is to the Word. I would suggest you learn from Peter.

[waltero]

@JL, I don't follow?


God promised a Massiah. It is written. What has been written is solid and true.
There is no way Jesus would have turned to the dark side (as it were).

It's not as if Jesus entered the playing field and God had his fingers crossed, hoping Jesus would choose wisely. If You can think, all humanity as being of one Body...the body of Jesus. Without sin. Incapable of sin. "God prepared a body." in fact, I would go as far as to say all of creation is in one Body...one with God. In the body of God. It is as though God created himself. "His Word is higher than his name."

You do understand; all that we are living, all that is happening, all that is in time has already passed. It is done, finished. All those in Christ Jesus are on the other side, living with/in Jesus, praising God in/for eternity. God has spoken, "it is finished."

[Wondergirl]

There is no way Jesus would have turned to the dark side (as it were).

Jesus was fully God and fully man. As a human, He was exposed to temptations just as we are. He overcame them, then was able to understand and identify with our struggles.

[jlisenbe]

@JL, I don't follow?

Evrything posted below is just opinion at this point. You can post no scripture at all to support any of your ideas. And I'm not saying I disagree with it. I'm just saying there is no Scripture other than, "It is finished." And that general statement does not demonstrate the truth of virtually anything you said. "His word is higher than His name," is not a quote from the Bible. Even if it was, it certainly does not show that God created Himself. It's just throwing a supposed text out there in hopes that it might prove...something.

God promised a Massiah. It is written. What has been written is solid and true.
There is no way Jesus would have turned to the dark side (as it were).

It's not as if Jesus entered the playing field and God had his fingers crossed, hoping Jesus would choose wisely. If You can think, all humanity as being of one Body...the body of Jesus. Without sin. Incapable of sin. "God prepared a body." in fact, I would go as far as to say all of creation is in one Body...one with God. In the body of God. It is as though God created himself. "His Word is higher than his name."

You do understand; all that we are living, all that is happening, all that is in time has already passed. It is done, finished. All those in Christ Jesus are on the other side, living with/in Jesus, praising God in/for eternity. God has spoken, "it is finished."

To illustrate, you said God promised a Messiah. To support that, I could turn to Genesis 3:15. "I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel."

Or Isaiah 53. He was despised and rejected by men,a man of suffering who knew what sickness was.
He was like someone people turned away from;[b]
he was despised, and we didn’t value him.

4 Yet he himself bore our sicknesses,
and he carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced because of our rebellion,
crushed because of our iniquities;
punishment for our peace was on him,
and we are healed by his wounds.
6 We all went astray like sheep;
we all have turned to our own way;
and the Lord has punished him
for[c] the iniquity of us all.

Just be aware that if you post anything WG disagrees with, she will dismiss it as "cherry-picking". That's her prerogative, but it still lends a lot of strength to your argument.

[Wondergirl]

Just be aware that if you post anything WG disagrees with, she will dismiss it as "cherry-picking". That's her prerogative, but it still lends a lot of strength to your argument.

That's NOT what cherry-picking is! It has nothing to do with disagreeing. I'm shocked at your post!