[Wondergirl]

I shortened your convoluted and excessively verbose question. Have you calmed down enough yet to read my answer?

[jlisenbe]

The reader should note what has gone on so far in what is, I assure you, a vain attempt to answer a very simple, straightforward question. It makes a root canal quite simple in comparison. If you are laughing, then we can laugh together. It is about the only humor to be found on this board.

[Wondergirl]

(He doesn't seem to be calmed down enough yet. I will wait patiently -- while sipping from a mug of hot chocolate.)

[jlisenbe]

Don't wait too long, lest the laughter turn into howling.

[jlisenbe]

Oh well. We can just forget it. It's not worth all this.

[Wondergirl]

18 nWhoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not obelieved in the name of the only Son of God.

I believe, and have believed since my Baptism when I was an infant.

Does a person born as a Muslim in the Middle East have the same opportunity for salvation as a person born in America?

[jlisenbe]

Thank you for answering a question no one asked. And it's complete nonsense to say you believed as an infant. Totally ridiculous.

[Wondergirl]

Thank you for answering a question no one asked. And it's complete nonsense to say you believed as an infant. Totally ridiculous.

At Baptism, God worked faith in my heart, and my parents obeyed His command to bring me up in the knowledge of Him and in His love.

Baptism is a sacrament, a visible means of an invisible grace.

[jlisenbe]

Total nonsense supported nowhere in the Bible. As you often do, you are simply making it up as you go along.

The question remains unanswered, and we all know why. You cannot say "yes" since that would be agreeing that God does judge people, and yet you can't say "no" since it would be an open admission to what is plainly evident, that you don't agree with what Jesus said, so you just duck and dodge.

Having read, as you claim, the John 3 passage that was quoted many moons ago, do you agree with its content, especially the portion that is underlined? I have posted it below to help.

[Wondergirl]

I believe God judges us on the Last Day.

Total nonsense supported nowhere in the Bible. As you often do, you are simply making it up as you go along.

That's Protestant theology.

The question remains unanswered, and we all know why. You cannot say "yes" since that would be agreeing that God does judge people, and yet you can't say "no" since it would be an open admission to what is plainly evident, that you don't agree with what Jesus said, so you just duck and dodge.

I answered the question.

[jlisenbe]

That's Protestant theology.

Absolutely not.

I answered the question.

Nowhere have you answered the question. But to be fair, I'll repost the question, and you can simply cut and paste your answer. "Having read, as you claim, the John 3 passage that was quoted many moons ago, do you agree with its content, especially the portion that is underlined? I have posted it below to help."

[Wondergirl]

Absolutely not.

Yes, that's Protestant theology. I'm guessing you are a Pentecostal.

The content of John 3 has to do with Nicodemus. The context is regeneration.

[jlisenbe]

That is Lutheran theology, but not for the rest of Protestant denominations.

The content of John 3 has to do with Nicodemus. The context is regeneration.

And again, an answer to a question not asked.

I rest my case. Other readers will note that you could not copy/paste any relevant answer you have given. It's a perfect example of what I have been saying.

[Wondergirl]

That is Lutheran theology, but not for the rest of Protestant denominations.

Yes, Protestant.

And again, an answer to a question not asked.

I answered your question. Post #210. You are saying, "No comprendo"?

[jlisenbe]

Nope. Not Protestants in general. Only Lutherans.

This is what passed for your "answer". You plainly did not even come close. The last two comments certainly are not answers. The first one did not answer the question.

"I believe God judges us on the Last Day.
That's Protestant theology.
I answered the question."

Nice try, but no cigar. I'll give you the last desperate comment. I'm done. You've demonstrated what I said all along. You are fearful of answering questions.

The still unanswered question. "... do you agree with its content, especially the portion that is underlined?"

[Wondergirl]

The Catholic Church and many mainline Protestant churches, such as the Episcopal, Reformed, Methodist, and Lutheran churches, practice infant baptism. Babies as young as a few days old are baptized, and godparents make the baptismal promises for the baby.

I had said: The content of John 3 has to do with Nicodemus. The context is regeneration.

[dwashbur]

Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
I accept Jesus' statements that he's the only way, and belief - a terrible word for it in today's American English, "trust" would be much better - in him is crucial to reconciliation with God.
Thank you for replying.

A follow-up question: How then do you explain the millions who lived before Jesus and never heard of him? And the billions who lived since Jesus and never heard of him? Does Jesus' statement that he's the only way, and is crucial to reconciliation with God apply to those groups? Do they go to hell?

En masse? No. God deals with individual hearts. Paul addressed this in Acts 17:

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

Obviously they can't repent toward something they haven't heard, so every person who looked at their culture's idol deity and said "I don't want to worship a rock. I want to know who made the rock" God will be merciful because they're doing the best they can to trust in him.

I'm sure you've heard this before and I anticipate your answer.

Another thought is: If they go to hell for not accepting Jesus/God, why did Jesus/God create them in the first place, knowing they would spend eternity in terrible suffering? Being omniscient, Jesus/God must have foreseen that they would be sinners or non-believers, but he created them anyway.

Foreknowledge need not be causation. But to address your question directly, after decades of study I have come to a definitive conclusion:

I don't know.

I figure any God worthy of the title is going to be as far above my comprehension as Kiergegaardian philosophy is above my cat's. There's no way the finite mind can comprehend the infinite, and I suspect that if he/she/it did explain it to us, our heads would explode. Maybe literally.

The other conclusion I came to: I hate theology.

[jlisenbe]

God will be merciful because they're doing the best they can to trust in him.

Your thinking on this is interesting. I'm not wild about the Acts passage. I would prefer the parable Jesus told of the Pharisee and Publican who went to prayer. The publican prayed, "God have mercy on me, a sinner." His plea for mercy, said Jesus, resulted in him going away "justified". Now it's a parable, but it does seem to me to open the door perhaps a bit for those who haven't heard the Gospel and yet still appeal to a God of mercy. And then there is Abraham, the example of justification by faith used by Paul, and yet unaware of the name of Christ. It seems to me he was looking towards the one he knew was there and yet, to him, unnamed.

I can't agree with the idea of our "best". Man's best is never even close to being good enough to please God. Romans 3 closes that door pretty emphatically. Mercy is our major plea.

Thanks for the post. It is thought provoking. The whole foreknowledge argument is a tough one. Like you, I suspect the answer is perhaps beyond our ability to understand.

[Athos]

fm Athos
How then do you explain the millions who lived before Jesus and never heard of him? And the billions who lived since Jesus and never heard of him? Does Jesus' statement that he's the only way, and is crucial to reconciliation with God apply to those groups? Do they go to hell?

fm dwashbur
Obviously they can't repent toward something they haven't heard, so every person who looked at their culture's idol deity and said "I don't want to worship a rock. I want to know who made the rock" God will be merciful because they're doing the best they can to trust in him.

I agree with you. I would add that God's mercy also applies to those who, in good conscience, worship their deity even though others may see it as a rock idol.

Foreknowledge need not be causation.

When foreknowledge is combined with the power of creation, it definitely IS causation.

But to address your question directly, after decades of study I have come to a definitive conclusion:

I don't know.

Fair enough. My position is that God is not self-contradictory. Therefore, there is no hell as it is commonly thought of today - a place of eternal torture as punishment for sin or non-belief.

The other conclusion I came to: I hate theology.

I find the study of God fascinating. To each his own.


Good reply. Thank you.

[jlisenbe]

. I would add that God's mercy also applies to those who, in good conscience, worship their deity even though others may see it as a rock idol.

So the "not self-contradictory" God is now OK with the worship of other idolatrous gods? That would certainly toss the first two commandments out the window.

This is just a rehashing of the "good conscience" idea, that whatever we do, if it is done in good conscience, is acceptable to God. So human sacrifice, for instance, can pass muster as long as it is done in a genuine practice of sincere worship by "good people".