[Wondergirl]

1. Total depravity -- the idea that we’re all just awful and that’s why we need God to save us.

2. We are all constantly at risk of going to hell because of something we do or believe or doubt.

3. You get saved by accepting Jesus as your personal savior.

4. There is an “order of creation” ordained by God that establishes gender roles, family structure, etc.

5. The Bible is inerrant.

6. Shun people who believe differently than those in your church.

7. All religions actually lead us on the same path to God.

8. Religions are mutually exclusive.

9. Priests/ministers/rabbis should be men because Jesus was a dude.

10. America was founded as a Christian nation.

Do you agree that any of the above are harmful or corruptions? If so, why? If not, why not?

[jlisenbe]

1. Total depravity -- the idea that we’re all just awful and that’s why we need God to save us. We are sinners in need of a Savior. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 21But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

2. We are all constantly at risk of going to hell because of something we do or believe or doubt. True for unbelievers because of sin. It's a very plain and clear Biblical truth. John 3:16 for instance.

3. You get saved by accepting Jesus as your personal savior. The most thoroughly Biblical statement a person can make.

4. There is an “order of creation” ordained by God that establishes gender roles, family structure, etc. There are gender roles and family structure in the Bible.

5. The Bible is inerrant. Not sure on that one. I lean in that direction, but still not 100% in.

6. Shun people who believe differently than those in your church. No. Just the opposite.

7. All religions actually lead us on the same path to God. This is a list of harmful and corrupted beliefs, so I would agree that this statement is harmful and a corruption of the truth.

8. Religions are mutually exclusive. The Christian faith is radically different from all other faiths.

9. Priests/ministers/rabbis should be men because Jesus was a dude. No. I've never even heard that one before.

10. America was founded as a Christian nation. No. To say we were founded on Biblical principles would be closer to the truth.

For the first nine, it's not what we "believe" that makes the difference. The plain and clear teaching of the Bible is what counts. At least it is so long as we consider our beliefs to come from the Bible and not from our own personal inclinations.

[Athos]

Do you agree that any of the above are harmful or corruptions? If so, why? If not, why not?

This reads like a fundamentalist manifesto.

It's a perfect example of a primitive religion stuck in the throes of a strongman "God" and, in this case, by a series of books written by as many authors over several centuries. The Bible is hardly inerrant but it does contain many good things along with many allegories unfortunately taken as literal by too many of its adherents resulting in absurdities.

The Bible's New Testamant has been changed and edited until it reached its final form in the 4th century. The Bible was further changed during the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. It may yet be changed again at some point in the future as more and more is learned about how it was written.

Like all religions, Christianity has both good and bad. Your list contains the bad and I would add to that list the existence of hell and the existence of the devil - both notions lifted from other cultures/religions at the time.

A mature Christianity has evolved over the centuries since its founding and the modern version properly understood and interpreted is admirable for its lessons and worthy of imitation.

[jlisenbe]

Tell us where it was changed. Be specific. And please no fake quotes.

You sure got off topic in a hurry.

[Wondergirl]

8. Religions are mutually exclusive. The Christian faith is radically different from all other faiths.

Consider a god impregnating a human female -- a few examples:
***Zeus came to Danae in the form of a golden shower and left her pregnant with the Greek hero, Perseus.
***Jupiter forcibly overcame Europa by transforming himself into a white bull and abducted her. He imprisoned her on the Isle of Crete, over time fathering three children.
***The earliest accounts of Zoroaster’s birth had him born of a human father and mother, but in later accounts his mother was pierced by a shaft of divine light.
***The Buddha’s mother Maya, in a dream, found herself pregnant after being entered from the side by a god.
***Helen of Troy, the rare female offspring of a god-human mating, was produced when Zeus took the form of a swan to get access to Leda.
***The Virgin Mary got pregnant when the spirit of the Lord came upon her and the power of the Most High overshadowed her.

[jlisenbe]

Well, you are confirming your status as an anti-Bible, anti-truth sinner. Amazing. Jesus is nothing more to you than Helen of Troy or Zoraster. Nothing in the Bible is to believed in your view. Sad.

[Wondergirl]

Well, you are confirming your status as an anti-Bible, anti-truth sinner. Amazing. Jesus is nothing more to you than Helen of Troy or Zoraster. Nothing in the Bible is to believed in your view. Sad.

Why would the Gospel writers frame the story of Jesus' conception to be so like that of gods in other religions?

[Athos]

Consider a god impregnating a human female -- a few examples:
***Zeus came to Danae in the form of a golden shower and left her pregnant with the Greek hero, Perseus.
***Jupiter forcibly overcame Europa by transforming himself into a white bull and abducted her. He imprisoned her on the Isle of Crete, over time fathering three children.
***The earliest accounts of Zoroaster’s birth had him born of a human father and mother, but in later accounts his mother was pierced by a shaft of divine light.
***The Buddha’s mother Maya, in a dream, found herself pregnant after being entered from the side by a god.
***Helen of Troy, the rare female offspring of a god-human mating, was produced when Zeus took the form of a swan to get access to Leda.
***The Virgin Mary got pregnant when the spirit of the Lord came upon her and the power of the Most High overshadowed her.

These are excellent examples of the stories current in the days of writing the Gospels. It made it quite easy for the story of the Virgin birth as "overshadowed" by the Holy Spirit to be accepted by the early believers in Jesus.

Get ready to be called a heretic and a lost sinner on the way to eternal hell - another story taken at face value by the early believers and especially the Christian establishment .

[jlisenbe]

Tell us where it was changed. Be specific. And please no fake quotes.

You sure got off topic in a hurry.

Still needs an answer.

[Athos]

Still needs an answer.

You can't figure this out for yourself with the huge internet at your fingertips? How lazy can one person be?

During the Protestant Reformation, the following books were dropped or changed:

Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1st Maccabees, 2nd Maccabees, Daniel and Esther.

Next time, do your own research.

[jlisenbe]

Why would the Gospel writers frame the story of Jesus' conception to be so like that of gods in other religions?

How do you know they did?

You really think the account of the virgin birth parallels these stories??? Were any of those stories prophesied six hundred years before they happened? Do you have eye witness accounts written within seventy years of those occurrences?

Jupiter forcibly overcame Europa by transforming himself into a white bull and abducted her. He imprisoned her on the Isle of Crete, over time fathering three children.

Oh yeah. That sounds a LOT like the virgin birth account.

***The earliest accounts of Zoroaster’s birth had him born of a human father and mother, but in later accounts his mother was pierced by a shaft of divine light.

Except that there are no early accounts that say Jesus was born of a human mother and father.

***The Buddha’s mother Maya, in a dream, found herself pregnant after being entered from the side by a god.

Not even close.

You can't figure this out for yourself with the huge internet at your fingertips? How lazy can one person be?

During the Protestant Reformation, the following books were dropped or changed:

Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1st Maccabees, 2nd Maccabees, Daniel and Esther.

Next time, do your own research.

So the New Testament, which was of course the topic of discussion ("The Bible's New Testamant has been changed and edited until it reached its final form in the 4th century."), was not changed. Whew! That's a relief. And notice that I did not have to insert any words into what was actually a quote from you...for real!!

Why should I do research for your outlandish remarks?

Where were Daniel and Esther changed? Specifically. Especially considering that the Masoretic text, which is the basis for our Old Testament, dates from the tenth century, about six centuries PRIOR to the Reformation. Kind of doesn't make sense, does it?

[Wondergirl]

Except that there are no early accounts that say Jesus was born of a human mother and father.

Mary and her husband Joseph.

Where were Daniel and Esther changed?

Wikipedia has a good article about the Apocrypha.

[Athos]

"The Bible's New Testamant has been changed and edited until it reached its final form in the 4th century."), was not changed.

I wrote "The Bible has been changed etc etc Protestant Reformation". THE BIBLE! Good Lord, there you go, changing the words again to suit yourself.

Why should I do research for your outlandish remarks?

Easy - to get the answer you seek. Then when you get it, come back and tell us if it's still "outlandish". You probably won't, tho'. See how we know your BS?

Where were Daniel and Esther changed?

Look it up. Another simple exercise.

the basis for our Old Testament, dates from the tenth century, about six centuries PRIOR to the Reformation. Kind of doesn't make sense, does it?

That didn't bother you when it came to citing non-existent copies of Gospels in 70 AD - did it?

[jlisenbe]

1, Changed words? No, that's your area. I quoted you exactly. Remember those little quotations mark do-daddies? But if you don't know, then that's fine

2. As usual, you cannot support your own claims and are reduced to the childish effort of trying to get someone else to help you cheat on your homework.

3. Again, you have no clue

4. Who said they were non-existent? Oh wait. That's right, you make a claim, and someone else is supposed to research it. I keep forgetting!

BTW, it was yet another non answer.

See what I mean about people who make grandiose claims but have no ability at all to support them?

[Athos]

1, Changed words? No, that's your area. I quoted you exactly. But if you don't know, then that's fine

Here is what I said, word for word - The Bible was further changed during the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

Go away, will you? You really are becoming a pest.

[jlisenbe]

You keep forgetting that AMHD keeps great records. This is what you said. I underlined the part I quoted and you are trying desperately to forget about.

The Bible's New Testamant has been changed and edited until it reached its final form in the 4th century. The Bible was further changed during the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. It may yet be changed again at some point in the future as more and more is learned about how it was written.

Remember now?

Except that there are no early accounts that say Jesus was born of a human mother and father.



Mary and her husband Joseph.

You know of an early source that says Joseph was the physical father of Jesus? Where? And please don't tell me to google it.

Where were Daniel and Esther changed?

Wikipedia has a good article about the Apocrypha.

Thank you for answering a question that was not asked. This was the question. "Where were Daniel and Esther changed?" Those two books are not in the Apocrypha.

[Athos]

You keep forgetting that AMHD keeps great records. This is what you said. I underlined the part I quoted and you are trying desperately to forget about.

Remember now?

Dear God, how dopey can you be? The very statement I made is in your actual quote of mine. You asked for a specific - I gave you one, (actually I gave you several). For additional examples, I told you to look it up on the internet. You refuse to do that because you know what you will find and you don't like it.

[jlisenbe]

You gave me nothing from the NT which is exactly what I said. I will not help you cheat on your homework. Truth is, you have no clue. You made a big, bold statement and then got called on it. That's on you.

Note for the future. I will call you out every time you try that silly strategy. Be prepared.

[Wondergirl]

"Where were Daniel and Esther changed?" Those two books are not in the Apocrypha.

Please read the Wikipedia article. I'd c/p, but it's Labor Day and I'm resting.

[Athos]

That's on you.

No it's on you. It's ALWAYS been on you. Always.

Please read the Wikipedia article. I'd c/p, but it Labor Day and I'm resting.

Plus it's Monday - the traditional day of rest. Rest well, WG.