[jlisenbe]

Athos has way too much time on his hands. And that, he said, was brief!

[Athos]

Athos has way too much time on his hands. And that, he said, was brief!

Stalking me again? You'll say anything - no matter how inconsequential - to see your name on these pages.

[jlisenbe]

And you are replying why? For a person who claimed to have me blocked you reply to everything. Troll alert??

[waltero]

God Calls for faith therefore there can be no evidence, is that right? That's one way of putting it. You're starting to understand.

Faith is Evidence. Faith is … the evidence of things not seen.
There is no Evidence without faith.

A thought, as an example:
One might say; It was faith, of the Patriarchs of old that brought about the Messiah.
 
“The greatest proof of Christianity for others is not how far a man can logically analyze his reasons for believing, but how far in practice he will stake his life on his belief.”

T. S. Eliot (1888-1965)

If you guys don't stop fighting, I'm going to tell Mom!

[Wondergirl]

One might say; It was the faith of the Patriarchs of old that brought about the Messiah .

God brought about the Messiah and first promised that Messiah to Adam and Eve. The patriarchs had nothing to do with bringing about the Messiah--

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

[Athos]

And you are replying why? For a person who claimed to have me blocked you reply to everything. Troll alert??

I never claimed to have you blocked. I claimed to ignore you, which I have done for the most part. I do not reply to everything from you. As I have told you, only some things you say do I reply. One of the reasons (among several) is shown right here - the way you twist words to your own advantage, discarding the truth. You have all the characteristics of a troll.

[jlisenbe]

Takes one to know one. Eh? And as I’m sure you know, blocks here are on the “ignore list”.

[Athos]

Faith is Evidence. Faith is … the evidence of things not seen.
There is no Evidence without faith.

I'll assume this is a reply to me.

Yes, you seem to agree with my idea and with the supporting quote from Paul.

One might say; It was faith, of the Patriarchs of old that brought about the Messiah

Yes, you could say that, but then you would be upsetting the Christian apple-cart.

“The greatest proof of Christianity for others is not how far a man can logically analyze his reasons for believing, but how far in practice he will stake his life on his belief.”

Great quote from TS. In the earliest days, it was said that the Christian's actions and behavior were what drew others to them, not their beliefs.

If you guys don't stop fighting, I'm going to tell Mom!

LOL. If that's about Jl and me, be advised that I rarely reply to him, but he invariably has a snarky comment to me even when I ignore him. You could look it up. (I'll admit to my own snarky comments every so often - it's the nature of the beast).

Since you have not challenged the rest of my not-too-brief post, I'll assume you're in general agreement with it. Or at least not against it. The wheels of progress grind exceedingly slow.

as I’m sure you know, blocks here are on the “ignore list”.

I don't know what you mean, so what you're "sure you know" is ..................... (fill in the word).

[Athos]

[QUOTE fm Jl/]

"(5) Cosmological constant(which controls the expansion speed of the universe) refers to the balance of the attractive force of gravity with a hypothesized repulsive force of space observable only at very large size scales. It must be very close to zero, that is, these two forces must be nearly perfectly balanced. To get the right balance, the cosmological constant must be fine-tuned to something like 1 part in 10120. If it were just slightly more positive, the universe would fly apart; slightly negative, and the universe would collapse.As with the cosmological constant, the ratios of the other constants must be fine-tuned relative to each other. Since the logically-possible range of strengths of some forces is potentially infinite, to get a handle on the precision of fine-tuning, theorists often think in terms of the range of force strengths, with gravity the weakest, and the strong nuclear force the strongest. The strong nuclear force is 1040 times stronger than gravity, that is, ten thousand, billion, billion, billion, billion times the strength of gravity. Think of that range as represented by a ruler stretching across the entire observable universe, about 15 billion light years. If we increased the strength of gravity by just 1 part in 1034 of the range of force strengths (the equivalent of moving less than one inch on the universe-long ruler), the universe couldn’t have life sustaining planets."[/QUOTE]


When I first replied to this post, the above hadn't yet been posted. So here I am, catching up.

The rebuttal is simple, but I'm doing it anyway, since some passers-by may be impressed by the big words Jl has copied.

Simply put, none of the above proves the existence of God. That should be obvious to anyone.

[Athos]

It is presenting God as the best possible explanation, and in fact the only currently plausible explanation,

Not definitive.

Actually, it has been used as evidence for God for a long, long time. It's called the moral argument.

Used as an analogy, maybe. Hardly, evidence.

Actually, the data for gravity is very well understood and it is that data that tells us that the fine tuning is incredible as the material I posted at the bottom of the page clearly showed.

The fine tuning is incredible. Not evidence, tho.

it does begin with what is historically valid evidence, and that is eye witness testimony from hundreds of individuals.

"Eye-witness" testimony from a book is, by definition, not eye-witness. It's hearsay.

Then there is the willingness of those witnesses to suffer greatly and, in fact, die in defense of it.

Not evidence for God's existence. People suffer and die willingly for many reasons.

There is the changing of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday which for Jews would have been unthinkable.

Need I say this is not evidence?

The extra-biblical evidence is very strong including Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, and others.

None of their writings are evidence of the existence of God (Christian).

The incredibly rapid spread of the Christian faith, against great opposition and including great persecution of those who believed, with not one shred of military operations to support it, is great evidence.

Not only is it not "great" evidence. it is not evidence at all! You really need to understand what evidence is - especially since you made such a point of it previously..

For something to wind down, it must at first been wound up. That is presently characterized as the Big Bang. The point is that the universe is not a repeating cycle.

What is the point of your point? Surely, not that it's evidence?

My comment about life was not an observation. It is empirically demonstrable.

Please demonstrate empirically that it is evidence for the existence of God.

You have no substantial science background,

Did you ever hear of "people in glass house shouldn't throw stones"? That's you to a "T".

and yet you decided that Jastrow had an "odd lack of knowledge"

A lack of knowledge for claiming that the spiritual has been "scientifically proven", etc. That's a nonsense, untrue statement from anybody, let alone a scientist.

It was, for you, a regrettable statement.

I never regret the truth of what I say. Shall I say it again? Jastrow was WRONG!

If you don't want to wear it, then don't put it on.

No idea what this means. Do you know?

Semi-fair point except that he was using a great deal of evidence to make his point.

Did we read the same thing? He was not using a single piece of evidence to demonstrate his point.

Perhaps you should have qualified your statement by "I think"

There was no need to. The truth of my statement is self-evident.

[waltero]

Faith is Evidence. Faith is … the evidence of things not seen.

Are you looking for an Excuse for those without faith...not plainly seeing any evidence of God? We Know that this is true: God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been "clearly seen," being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Anyway you wish to look at it, the evidence is there. Faith applied in your life equals God, Life...Physical Evidence without faith (all other religions) brings Hellfire, Death.

Jesus being the Son of God...Jesus being God, has the same effect and is Equally divisive.

Example: Jesus is the Son of God! Why do most Christian's have a problem with that? The Converse will draw the same reaction; Jesus is God...Jesus is the Son of God, that is not a lie...Jesus is God, that is not a lie...leave it alone.

If you believe in the God of the Bible, why do you ask that question? You know there is evidence what does it matter if ""you"" (or creation) can't prove it...God has already proved it.
Any thought on those who have come to the faith by evidence (or are you thinking that is impossible) aside from faith. I finally Understand what you are talking about. I don't believe it has any relevance to the Christian Community.
It might have some relevance to the Mormon faith...I wouldn't know

[Athos]

Waltero - Have you read a single thing I have written? Much of your replies are far off the discussion.

Are you looking for an Excuse for those without faith?

Where in the world is that coming from? When you can't come up with a reply, just say so, I'll understand. Don't go writing inanities. That doesn't help your case.

Not plainly seeing any evidence of God. But we Know that this is true also: God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been "clearly seen," being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Walter - You're not in a pulpit. You're on a Q&A board. You have a tendency to preach when the time is not ripe - like here and now - and about topics not being discussed. Again, if you feel out of your league, just say so, and I'll understand.

Anyway you wish to look at it, the evidence is there.

That's fine. But it's been two days now, and lots and lots of posts, but you STILL haven't provided evidence. What you may believe is NOT evidence. You need to get that through your head. Otherwise, you're just repeating yourself.

Faith applied in your life equals God, Life...Physical Evidence without faith brings Death, Hell.

*sigh* remember what I told you about Christians and fear - how they show fear by threatening hell? Remember? You're doing it now.

Example: Jesus is the son of God! Why do most Christian's have a problem that?

Most Christians do NOT have a problem with that. That's a major part of their belief. Now I'm forced to ask - what kind of a Christian are you? Can you name a denomination or a movement or anything to help me understand where you're coming from?

The Converse will draw the same reaction; Jesus is God! Jesus is the Son of God, that is not a lie...Jesus is God, that is not a lie...leave it alone.

Walter, you're rambling. Are you OK?

If you believe in the God of the Bible, why do you ask that question? You know there is evidence what does it matter if ""you"" (or creation) can't prove it...God has already proved it.

What matters is when Christians try to insist that there is evidence for the existence of God, they can't prove it. This makes the rest of their message less credible. Soon they are threatening with hell to throw fear - as you are doing right now even tho you have been warned about doing just that.

The worst of the Christians go so far as to threaten even non-believers with hellfire if they don't believe. That, of course, condemns most of God's creation over the millennia to damnation. Is that the kind of God you believe in? He creates people knowing the great majority of them will wind up in a fiery torture chamber for all eternity?

That's part of the reason you want your faith to grow into the adult version. Paul again,"When I was a child, I thought like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me." Time for you to dig deeper into your chosen faith.

[waltero]

What matters is when Christians try to insist that there is evidence for the existence of God, they can't prove it

Faith is when; Christians try to insist that there is evidence...because in there mind there is...what don't you get? It's Called faith. It is a fact and a reality even if others can't see it. Faith Speaks.

Proving it is Irrelevant. The proof is in ones life that he lives...even the Life of Christ that is in you.
That's the beauty of it. It is not what you prove (in your actions, life) it's what you Speak.
You bring Jesus into your life/reality by what you speak (the Written, Living Word). Just as God brought all of creation into reality by his Word.


I'll just leave it at that.

I might think of Hell as a man made Construct.  It holds no reality in me. It will be wiped away. No memory of it. Hell might even be the only "evidence" unbelievers believe in, their reality? Fear, the opposite of faith?

[paraclete]

Hell is not a man made construct, Jesus spoke of it, a place of eternal torment.

You speak of Faith as if it doesn't exist, perhaps you believe that is a man made construct too but Jesus also spoke of it. I don't think you have faith as big as a mustard seed and so you profane what you don't understand. What did Jesus say to Thomas?

[Athos]

Faith is when; Christians try to insist that there is evidence. Because in there mind there is...what don't you get? It's Called faith. It is a fact and a reality even if others can't see it.

Walter, of course I get it. Do you? A fact is an objective reality that people can see. If it's only in their mind, it may be a reality for them, but it may or may not be a fact. It's best to be careful with words and not just throw out what you feel, no matter how intensely you may feel it.

Proving it is Irrelevant.

For those who have faith, I absolutely agree. However, this topic began as evidence for the existence of God. I don't think we should just throw it away because it disturbs you.

The proof is in ones life that he lives...even the Life of Christ that is in you.

No argument. See my response immediately above.

I'll just leave it at that.

That's always been your privilege. But don't think you've adequately answered the question. There must have been a reason you engaged in the first place. Has something disturbed your way of thinking? That's not always a bad thing.

I might think of Hell as a man made Construct.

That's EXACTLY what hell is. I'm heartened you can make that statement.

It holds no reality to me and it will be wiped away.

That's a major step.

Hell might even be the only evidence unbelievers believe in.

You don't know how true that is! Very good insight. Some people key on hell and little else. They need help.

Fear, the opposite of faith?

Another good insight. In the sense we're discussing, definitely!

[jlisenbe]

Simply put, none of the above proves the existence of God. That should be obvious to anyone.

No, but it reduces the possibility of a natural explanation for the universe to a vanishing point. You could say that it proves the universe has significant elements of design.

Hell is not a man made construct, Jesus spoke of it, a place of eternal torment.

Exactly correct. Hell and judgment are spoken of in several dozen places in the NT. To reject that is simply to place the opinion of man over the authority of the NT. "I don't like or understand the concept of hell and judgment, so I'll just pretend it is not spoken of in the NT."

[waltero]

A fact is an objective reality that people can see. If it's only in their mind, it may be a reality for them, but it may or may not be a fact.

If you have Faith it is a reality (fact). Faith, It has to present itself as factual. Faith applied, released and activated...not one inkling of doubt should enter your mind...that is the best I can do with faith.

What matters is when Christians try to insist that there is evidence for the existence of God.

What do you expect?  Wouldn't faith dictate "their" evidence as being real?  How are you going to have faith and understand it  any other way? Knowing God I know the Evidence as real, I can not see or even contemplate there being lack of evidence...so I will profess and tell you the Truth, there is evidence! If  I tell you there is no evidence I would be lying. 

"I might think"----- of Hell as a man made Construct....Notice the first three words.

I meant it in the sense that People create their own hell. 
Hell  makes sense, heaven doesn't. hell is reasonable heaven is not.
The Popular conception of hell does not come from the bible to begin with. 
Hell is an Awful reality.

"I don't like or understand the concept of hell and judgment, so I'll just pretend it is not spoken of in the NT."

I'm with you. understanding it as - Man creates his own hell...is that OK?

I have trouble articulating myself, I haven't had much Practice, Pardon.

That's it for me. It's been nice chatting with you.


P.S.

One might say; It was faith of the Patriarchs of old that brought about the Messiah .

Honestly, You can't see the Bigger picture?

[jlisenbe]

I have trouble articulating myself, I haven't had much Practice, Pardon.

That's it for me. It's been nice chatting with you.

Don't quit, Walter. Your comments are interesting. Don't let the give and take bother you. Use it as an opportunity to sharpen your arguments.

My comments about hell and judgment were not really directed at you. There are some here who discount the teachings of the NT on those subjects.

[talaniman]

Don't quit, Walter. Your comments are interesting. Don't let the give and take bother you. Use it as an opportunity to sharpen your arguments.

My comments about hell and judgment were not really directed at you. There are some here who discount the teachings of the NT on those subjects.

Guilty! I live in the HERE and NOW and let the ancient guys have their own reality no matter the religion or region.

I worry about the after life when it gets here.

[paraclete]

too late Tal