[talaniman]

I don't think this virus will let us bring about a budgetary path to a more balanced budget, nor see one until we get this virus under control which makes an outlay of even more funding to that end almost mandatory. I don't see the economy anywhere near full recovery in order to pay the bills we are racking up which won't stop until we have a vaccine, or an aggressive treatment regime that allows people safely back to work full time.

We haven't gotten the bill for this yet, and until we do we can't know what we will have to do to restore any fiscal sanity to the country. Nearly half the country was poor before the bug, and I see that growing as long as it's making people sick and killing folks.

Sorry that's all I got as a response to what you posted, but I doubt the normal arguments even apply right now other than measures to ease the social disruptions that the shutdown has caused and fear any reopening will result in even more sickness and deaths and MO"MONEY on the credit card.

Just keeping it real!

[paraclete]

We haven't gotten the bill for this yet, and until we do we can't know what we will have to do to restore any fiscal sanity to the country. Nearly half the country was poor before the bug, and I see that growing as long as it's making people sick and killing folks.

a liberal talking about fiscal sanity, Tal, not something expected from that side of the fence. The government cannot cure poor, never has, never will

[jlisenbe]

[Wondergirl]

I'm a Republican, but will answer, or rather, will ask a counter question. Are you willing to die from COVID-19?

[jlisenbe]

So you don't answer the question, but want to ask one? Doesn't work that way.

[Wondergirl]

So you don't answer the question, but want to ask one? Doesn't work that way.

Why can't women say "my body, my choice" when they want an abortion?

So, no, you can't say that.

Plus, it would be one of the most selfish, unloving actions that a person who claims to be a Christian could take.

[jlisenbe]

Why can't women say "my body, my choice" when they want an abortion?

Because it is not just about their bodies at that point. There are two lives at stake.

Plus, it would be one of the most selfish, unloving actions that a person who claims to be a Christian could take.

If you are referring to abortion, then I agree completely.

[talaniman]

It's disturbing to see cops use force to enforce social distancing guidelines just as it's disturbing to see the dufus trying to undermine Dr. Fauci,

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...against-fauci/

[talaniman]

You can take whatever moral stance you want regarding any issue, but it's YOUR moral stance and others have a right to theirs so comparing legal abortions to responses to a global health crisis is a totally false equivalency. Just as ignoring the sickness and death for economic reasons without safeguards is asking for more bad stuff to happen.

Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease, but if you want to be healthy, you endure it until you're cured.

[paraclete]

a little smoke and mirrors going on here

[talaniman]

You took the words right out of my mouth, and I've said so since Reagan and his low wage job creation claims. The practice has endured ever since, and been exported to other countries big time as well, making poverty a growth business for many who need cheap labor to turn a buck.

The foundation of the trickle down economic policy, and business model. Profits over people.

[jlisenbe]

Except, of course, that the number of people making minimum wage is only about 2% of the population and that wages have grown over time.

You can take whatever moral stance you want regarding any issue,

Bear in mind that your view is a moral position itself. Your approach is exactly the same that many people took in the 1850's regarding slavery. It was reprehensible then, and it is reprehensible now to regard a concern for human beings as being nothing more than merely a "moral stance". The next time you want to raise your largely false narrative about the kids in detention on the southern border, should I refer to that as nothing more than a "moral stance"?

And btw, I am not advocating against wearing masks. I wear mine in public. The point was a great deal deeper than whether or not to wear a mask.

[talaniman]

1. Even if true, the cost of living has also increased at a greater rate than some wages. You cannot ignore that part of the equation.

2. You can take my position any way you please. Mans cruelty to man is just a matter of history, as are his excuses for it. We make laws and people break them all the time. We change laws over time and people still break them. There is always the few against the many. Even doing the best we can, humans fall short of perfection.

So I take your point, but just don't agree with it. I see your narratives as false as you see mine, so what's the deal here? I doubt that changes anytime soon as long as we engage and interact on things beyond the flavor of donuts. Full disclosure, I have my favorite donuts, but love them ALL! I guess where I draw lines on my positions and the accompanying morality is the effects on others. On this and many issues we seem to have different approaches and abortions are just one of many. I get you want the laws changed and good luck with that, but until that happens actions within the law are accepted, as actions about slavery were accepted, since the first slave arrived here, and the laws were changed over time.

Slavery is illegal, but putting a value on human worth is still done by humans who are deemed to be authorized and accepted as authority. You may be a better paid slave, but a slave to the system nonetheless, under the thin veneer of voluntary participation. Like there are other choices. When the boss says show up, he doesn't ask what else you rather be doing, or what your morality is, you better show up.

You have the same choices that slaves had back then when it was legal except the physical chains and beatings were replaced with economic ones, less physical but just as binding. More so even.

[jlisenbe]

Even if true, the cost of living has also increased at a greater rate than some wages.

My statement is true, and this statement is not true.

I guess where I draw lines on my positions and the accompanying morality is the effects on others.

I don't think you do. If you really did, you would support the right of unborn to live. Since their brutal deaths are done in secret, most people just yawn and make moral platitudes.

You have the same choices that slaves had back then when it was legal except the physical chains and beatings were replaced with economic ones, less physical but just as binding. More so even.

I think if you had been a slave for even two weeks, you would never make such an absurd statement. Have you ever read of the slaves who fled north at the risk of their lives deciding to just go back and live in slavery again? Of course they didn't, and it just goes to show how crazy your statement is.

[Wondergirl]

Because it is not just about their bodies at that point. There are two lives at stake.

That's your belief. Others believe that it's not a real person until it's been born and is breathing.

WG: Plus, it would be one of the most selfish, unloving actions that a person who claims to be a Christian could take.

If you are referring to abortion, then I agree completely.

No, as you well know, I was referring to not wearing a mask.

[talaniman]

1. How convenient you ignore the rising pricings as you mention wages rising.

2. I don't have to pass your moral litmus test nor agree with your opinion on any subject. What you think seldom moves me.

3. The end of chains on black people was but the start of expanding the chains on all people. The moral thing to do? Progress? Evolution maybe? While you're reading you accounts of the past, take time to ask a black man NOW if his struggle is over yet. Let me know what they tell you.

The absurdity lies with you my friend if you think that the end of slavery ended subjugation, oppression, discrimination, suppression, racism, or any other excuse for man's cruelty to man.

[jlisenbe]

That's your belief. Others believe that it's not a real person until it's been born and is breathing.

It is not simply my belief that there are two bodies. That is as plainly evident as can be. As to the issue of "born and breathing", no one with any real knowledge of unborn children believes such a ridiculous idea. Brainwaves, heartbeat, and completely functioning body systems are all present months before delivery. The argument is ludicrous.

3. The end of chains on black people was but the start of expanding the chains on all people. The moral thing to do? Progress? Evolution maybe? While you're reading you accounts of the past, take time to ask a black man NOW if his struggle is over yet. Let me know what they tell you.

The absurdity lies with you my friend if you think that the end of slavery ended subjugation, oppression, discrimination, suppression, racism, or any other excuse for man's cruelty to man.

It is my fervent hope that you will someday have to endure slavery for a few months in the hope that on some dark, hopeless night it will dawn upon you what a priceless possession you had with your freedom that you so easily dismiss as "chains". You live where you want. You work where you want. You decide when to leave and when to return home. You enjoy a standard of living most of the world yearns for, and yet you make such statements.

How convenient you ignore the rising pricings as you mention wages rising.

I didn't ignore rising prices. Go back and read my statement with a little more care. Wages have outpaced consumer prices in the years since Reagan.

[talaniman]

It is my fervent hope that you will someday have to endure slavery for a few months in the hope that on some dark, hopeless night it will dawn upon you what a priceless possession you had with your freedom that you so easily dismiss as "chains". You live where you want. You work where you want. You decide when to leave and when to return home. You enjoy a standard of living most of the world yearns for, and yet you make such statements.

It is my fervent hope you can walk in the shoes of a minority, and tell me how perfect the world is. Maybe it's better here than elsewhere in the world, no doubt, but don't try to feed me the crap sandwich about what I or any minority yearns for.

I didn't ignore rising prices. Go back and read my statement with a little more care. Wages have outpaced consumer prices in the years since Reagan.

Pure loony BS!

[Wondergirl]

It is not simply my belief that there are two bodies. That is as plainly evident as can be. As to the issue of "born and breathing", no one with any real knowledge of unborn children believes such a ridiculous idea. Brainwaves, heartbeat, and completely functioning body systems are all present months before delivery. The argument is ludicrous.

But it isn't breathing.

If you were female and had been impregnated by a selfish, demanding husband/boyfriend (especially one who had no interest in birth control), a rapist, a family member (incest), birth control failure, etc., you'll have little or no interest in nine months of nausea and vomiting, headaches, weight gain, backaches, frequent need to pee, constipation, swollen ankles, constant fatigue, being uncomfortable no matter the position, et al. (yeah, there's more).

Thus, abortion is the solution.

[Wondergirl]

Response to tal:

You live where you want. You work where you want. You decide when to leave and when to return home. You enjoy a standard of living most of the world yearns for, and yet you make such statements.

Yet Ahmaud Arbery was chased by white two guys in a truck and shot dead while out jogging. "Why?" they were asked later. "He was a black man running down our road," was the answer.