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Athos · Apr 20, 2020, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

if the President takes the side of liberty then I am on his side .

Tom, are you aware that a virus is all over the globe making people sick and many dying? And that the USA is the most affected country?

And that Trump did nothing for 70 days when measures could have been taken to save lives?

I don't think those rights extend to people killing other people through their criminal behavior. Behavior that is known world-wide to contribute to the virus spreading.

Trump knows nothing about liberty. His interest in opening is the stock market, and his chances for re-election. Could you have imagined anything more bizarre than Trump's delaying life-saving payments to Americans so he could get his name on the checks? Of course, he denied that but who in the world would have thought of something like that other than Trump?

It is time to drop your ideology, Tom, and replace it with common sense. You can always go back when this is all over.

talaniman · Apr 20, 2020, 03:23 PM

I have no problem with the bill itself, but the execution and implementation, is incompetent. The same argument for voter ID laws Tom I made years ago. The same argument I made with immigration policy, fiscal responsibility and a number of other subjects. Implementation and execution by repubs is lousy, incompetent, cruel and inhumane period, even when it's a good idea. You can complain about your states folks, I certainly complain about mine, but at this time the dufus passing the buck, scarfing the credit, and as always tooting his own horn and making other toot it as well is dispicable.

As to the bill, rest assured a lot more will be revealed and in the coming weaks we;ll see now won't we. Go ahead support the profits as the people suffer, and relief of the suffering should be the priority rather than seeking relief through the profit. For sure this virus crisis has exposed us to being greedy selfish b@stards thinking capitalism and trickle down is the way to go, and even conservatives see that folly but still some will push it anyway.

Either way 4 million tests of the needed hundreds of millions ain't cutting it. Whatever the costs to get there we just better bear it and get where we need to be and flying blind is no way to make America great again. YUP, I drank the kool aid, as we ain't so great right now as the fear of losing money and power has gripped us.

Thank you dufus for us needing to make America great again but I doubt that happens on your watch.

jlisenbe · Apr 20, 2020, 03:34 PM

Trump could have NOT signed it. Thus, the blame lies on him.

I think they have a shot now you can take for TDS. I feel pretty sure they will move you right to the front of the line.

I have no problem with the bill itself

You've read the bill? If you have not, and I feel pretty safe in guessing you have not, then how would you know you have no problems with it?

His interest (is)...his chances for re-election

Yeah. Thank goodness Pelosi, Biden, and the other dems have no interest at all in the election.

tomder55 · Apr 20, 2020, 03:35 PM

It is time to drop your ideology, Tom, and replace it with common sense.

I don't see liberty as an ideology . Liberty is

the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.Was it irresponsible for Jacksonville to reopen their beaches ? They have 20 cases a day . When should people get their liberty back ? When there are no cases ? You are silly ,

jlisenbe · Apr 20, 2020, 03:36 PM

Trump's delaying life-saving payments

"Life saving"?

tomder55 · Apr 20, 2020, 03:39 PM

Hows this for "life saving "consequences of imposed isolation ?

https://www.newsweek.com/us-alcohol-...ndemic-1495510

jlisenbe · Apr 20, 2020, 04:04 PM

Those ole unintended consequences usually come back to bite you.

Did the feds just send out checks at any time during the Great Depression? They did create jobs programs, but I don't think there were any free checks.

talaniman · Apr 20, 2020, 04:17 PM

I did my homework, but only read the summary. Then we can DISCUSS.

talaniman · Apr 20, 2020, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Those ole unintended consequences usually come back to bite you.

Did the feds just send out checks at any time during the Great Depression? They did create jobs programs, but I don't think there were any free checks.

There you go with that ancient stuff. The depression was not fueled by a health crisis the likes we have never seen. Can't even blame it on the dufus, but we can criticize what he does about it, giving leeway to the fact it's a huge daunting task.

paraclete · Apr 20, 2020, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

There you go with that ancient stuff. The depression was not fueled by a health crisis the likes we have never seen. Can't even blame it on the dufus, but we can criticize what he does about it, giving leeway to the fact it's a huge daunting task.

You can't blame Trump for an increase in alcohol consumption, he didn't cause CV, what you have to blame is people. I haven't increased my alcohol consumption because of isolation so someone who does just can't manage their time. A shutdown is a knee jerk reaction which says we cannot rely on people to be responsible, keep their distance and have good sanitation

talaniman · Apr 20, 2020, 04:54 PM

You're right, we should just keep doing what we did before and let it run it's course right? Even with things shutdown this virus is growing Clete, but why be broke and sick, right?

jlisenbe · Apr 20, 2020, 06:13 PM

There you go with that ancient stuff. The depression was not fueled by a health crisis the likes we have never seen. Can't even blame it on the dufus, but we can criticize what he does about it, giving leeway to the fact it's a huge daunting task.

The GD was much, much worse than what we are experiencing now. You can't even compare the two. People would work any kind of job they could find. It went on for years.

I did my homework, but only read the summary. Then we can DISCUSS.

So the answer is no. Even so, what did you think of the controls they put in place to control SBA loans?

talaniman · Apr 20, 2020, 06:34 PM

1.The GD was entirely different, wholly economic. This one will have a virelant disease component. Solve that you solve the economy.

2. The controls appear adequate on there face, and intentions, but only as good as the enforcement put behind them. There are plenty of holes in which to drive a truck through, but capitalizing the big banks wasn't the way to reach the intended small businesses, and another bill to correct that may not be as bi partisan as that one was nor as easy to craft.

I generally just read the summary first as it takes time to study the entire bill. The summary is like a table of contents to find specific data.

I have to remind you the feds were pushing money at this also, but in what ways is unknown. I had read that the regional banks were more the focus of the feds. Not enough facts to really connect those dots in any appreciable way yet.

jlisenbe · Apr 20, 2020, 06:54 PM

The controls appear adequate on there face, and intentions, but only as good as the enforcement put behind them. There are plenty of holes in which to drive a truck through.

So the controls are so adequate that there are many holes in which to drive trucks through? Well yes, that makes complete sense.

paraclete · Apr 20, 2020, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

You're right, we should just keep doing what we did before and let it run it's course right? Even with things shutdown this virus is growing Clete, but why be broke and sick, right?

It is interesting Tal it is growing there and declining elsewhere it seems about three months sees the worst, so as you say why be sick and broke but dead when after three months you can be back to just being broke

talaniman · Apr 21, 2020, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So the controls are so adequate that there are many holes in which to drive trucks through? Well yes, that makes complete sense.

You left out the part about enforcement, and my reference to the feds efforts, crucial to the overall execution and implementation of the legislation.

talaniman · Apr 21, 2020, 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by paraclete

It is interesting Tal it is growing there and declining elsewhere it seems about three months sees the worst, so as you say why be sick and broke but dead when after three months you can be back to just being broke

Not every place here started at the same time, nor is everyone broke. Do we even know we can count on herd immunity after that 3 months? Nobody knows but many seem willing to find out.

Athos · Apr 21, 2020, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

I don't see liberty as an ideology .

When an ideology starts killing people, it's time to adjust that ideology.

Liberty is the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views

Key phrase - OPPRESSIVE restrictions by authority, etc. Restrictions designed to save lives during a health crisis are not oppressive. That's why your ideology needs adjustment.

Was it irresponsible for Jacksonville to reopen their beaches ? They have 20 cases a day

Absolutely irresponsible. What will you say when those cases increase followed by people dying?

When should people get their liberty back ?

They've never lost it. If you mean when will things return to normal, there will be a new normal when a vaccine is developed.

You are silly ,

And you are foolish.

talaniman · Apr 21, 2020, 03:32 AM

The dufus touts the death rate and opening up states and I'll be darned if repub governors have decided to ease restrictions, and as yet none has sited the data that supports it. At least not publicly, nor have they shown they are prepared for it despite the Phase I guidelines for reopening. Among them the guy in Georgia who two weeks ago didn't know that the virus could be spread by people who look healthy and show no symptoms.

You think he was listening to Dr. Fauci, or the dufus?

tomder55 · Apr 21, 2020, 08:21 AM

Can we face an obvious fact? The virus will go through the population and infect more than half of us eventually . Then pray it doesnt mutate , The restrictions were put in place NOT to save lives . They were put in place so that public health facilities would not be over whelmed . Mission accomplished ,Now we need medicines and vaccines .Testing will only confirm what we know ….that many people have had it and did not show symptoms .

This isolation protocol is unsustainable .
Suppressing transmission means that we won’t build up herd immunity The trade off of success is that we are driving the infection rate down to such a low level that we have to keep those isolation measures in place to maintain that success.

Are we to keep the economy of the world shut down until vaccines are created ? And what happens if this is like other covid viruses like the common cold where immunity lasts about 3 months ?
I predict you will see an uptick in the death rates when people start going back to work no matter when restrictions are lifted . Still it has to be done . This isolation protocol is unsustainable . It creates it's own public health issues .

https://www.mentalhealth.va.gov/suic..._8-19-2019.pdf

No society can safeguard public health for long at the cost of its overall economic health. I know for a fact that private practices are shutting down ;or have not been able to treat patients for weeks . What happens when their patients are unemployed and no longer have coverage ? Many of the practices closing will not reopen. I have encountered that in the last week. I have had some telemed sessions with hospital run services . But I already know we will have to look for other primary care when all is said and done.

https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/...s-bill/574694/