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jlisenbe · Apr 9, 2020, 03:52 PM

1. Your "every translation" is sourced in a copy that made the initial error long ago.

That does not strike me as an adequate explanation. Besides, whatever it means for hell, it must mean the same thing for the life of the believer referenced in Matthew 19. I would hardly characterize that as a majority view.

2. That's called Purgatory.

There is no way to fit that into Matthew 25. Doesn't work. You have to "shoehorn" your existing belief into the text. The concept is nowhere to be found in that passage.

3. Those scriptures have been responded to in the many months when you were defending your non-belief-in-Jesus-eternal-punishment-in-hell business. If you need to see them again, check the archives.

I think we can take that as you having no reply. The cumulative weight of those scriptures is contrary to your concept.

4. No, I prefer my interpretation which is far more consistent with the Bible overall (and earlier than many of yours) than your sick interpretation which demonizes Jesus and comes from somewhere inside you.

That's fine. You differ with thousands of scholars over centuries who do not agree with you. That's OK with me, but I wouldn't expect many people to side with your view.

Let's get honest about something here. if you want to discuss this, you might as well be civil. I don't bow to you in any way in this discussion. You seem to think that I should just accept your remarks as gospel truth, but you can forget that. I generally don't find your remarks to be compelling, and there is certainly nothing about you that is intimidating. If you can't accept that, then that's OK with me and we can just drop it, but your cutting remarks have gotten old. But at least you did answer 2.5 of the questions, so I give you that much.

Wondergirl · Apr 9, 2020, 04:31 PM

JL said:

2. Would you agree that, even based upon your rendering of the Mt. 25 passage, that there is a hell and people will be sent there at least for some period of time?

Um, yes, that's the description of Purgatory.

Athos · Apr 9, 2020, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

if you want to discuss this, you might as well be civil.

You mean like you?

I don't bow to you in any way in this discussion. You seem to think that I should just accept your remarks as gospel truth, but you can forget that. I generally don't find your remarks to be compelling, and there is certainly nothing about you that is intimidating.

Wow! Imagine what a psychologist could do with that! Very revealing.

If you can't accept that,

Your reply was totally predictable. But I trust it will stop your carping once and for all. Your answer was simply your usual answer of your own statements without supporting facts.

A thousand scholars! Indeed! Please provide their names. No, never mind.

Now will you go away? Finally?

paraclete · Apr 9, 2020, 05:51 PM

Now will you go away? Finally?

Not much chance of that, about as much chance as getting out of his purgatory

jlisenbe · Apr 9, 2020, 06:10 PM

Um, yes, that's the description of Purgatory.

Can you point me to the scripture which describes a person getting out of hell and going to heaven such as would happen in Purgatory?

Your reply was totally predictable. But I trust it will stop your carping once and for all. Your answer was simply your usual answer of your own statements without supporting facts.

A thousand scholars! Indeed! Please provide their names. No, never mind.

Now will you go away? Finally?

Sadly consistent with the past.

A thousand scholars? I feel very safe in saying that in the dozens of translations that do not accept your drastically minority view of the meaning of "aionios", it would be safe to say that a thousand scholars were involved. I guess it would be safe to assume that you were not one of them. And I'm certain we can say the same thing about your translation of "kolasis". It's all fine with me. Believe it if you want to, but it does nothing to diminish the Biblical teaching of an eternal hell.

Wondergirl · Apr 9, 2020, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Can you point me to the scripture which describes a person getting out of hell and going to heaven such as would happen in Purgatory?

I was agreeing with Athos. What you described ("Would you agree that, even based upon your rendering of the Mt. 25 passage,that there is a hell and people will be sent there at least for some period of time?") is the definition of Purgatory.

Athos · Apr 9, 2020, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

...your translation of "kolasis". It's all fine with me. Believe it if you want to, but it does nothing to diminish the Biblical teaching of an eternal hell.

Of course it does. It is translated as "corrective punishment", not "eternal punishment". Corrective punishment means the penalty is temporary, not forever.

talaniman · Apr 10, 2020, 05:47 AM

Are we really discussing what the difference is between hell and purgatory? I fail to see the difference and though not a scholar, appreciated the zeal that the members take on the subject. As we enter into the spring and the days important to many, lets not forget those that are sick and suffering, the elders, and the least, dealing with the hell on earth scourge of this virus. Very grateful for those that take actions despite the obvious danger to themselves on behalf of other, from the medicine people to the grocery people. Their importance is obvious.

Be wise and safe and just give some thoughts to those that are a blessing for all of us.

jlisenbe · Apr 10, 2020, 06:55 AM

I was agreeing with Athos. What you described ("Would you agree that, even based upon your rendering of the Mt. 25 passage,that there is a hell and people will be sent there at least for some period of time?") is the definition of Purgatory.

I understood your intent. My question to Athos was not to affirm any temporary nature of hell but rather to see if we could at least agree that people will be sent to hell. But since there is not so much as a whisper in the Bible of people going from hell to heaven, or at least that I'm aware of, then I don't accept the idea of Purgatory. That's why I asked you what I did. I don't know if you buy into the idea of Purgatory or not.

As for Athos, you hold a position supported by a very much minority translation of two Greek words. I went through about ten mainstream, well-known NT translations and none of them agreed with your take on the two words in Mt. 25. So it's like your idea is water coming from a kitchen faucet with the Niagara Falls flowing in the background. I don't mean for that to sound offensive, but I'm going with the Niagara Falls which has Jesus describing hell as both eternal and fiery. I realize that rubs you the wrong way which I think is unfortunate. I suppose we'll just have to leave it at that.

talaniman · Apr 10, 2020, 07:35 AM

@WG from JL

I understood your intent. My question to Athos was not to affirm any temporary nature of hell but rather to see if we could at least agree that people will be sent to hell. But since there is not so much as a whisper in the Bible of people going from hell to heaven, then I don't accept the idea of Purgatory. That's why I asked you what I did.

Not to speak for anyone, but is it my understanding here that as you reject the concept of purgatory so should we all? Isn't that like me rejecting the bible, because of an ancient man or men saying what Jesus said to them eons ago? Or even broader accepting that any religious book should be taken as God inspired given the foibles of man (disciple or not; preacher or NOT.) in the first place?

It really scares me that ones faith is so dependent on a translation of a foreign language. An ancient foreign language at that.

jlisenbe · Apr 10, 2020, 07:58 AM

Not to speak for anyone, but is it my understanding here that as you reject the concept of purgatory so should we all?

Everyone is free to believe what they will. I'm just advocating for a position. I don't know of any Biblical support of purgatory. Maybe it's there and I'm not aware of it, but as in all things, people can take it or leave it.

It really scares me that ones faith is so dependent on a translation of a foreign language.

Practically all of ancient history is dependent on the translation of ancient languages. The Bible, and in particular the NT, is actually extraordinarily well supported.

Wondergirl · Apr 10, 2020, 08:51 AM

JL posted:

...So it's like your idea is water coming from a kitchen faucet with the Niagara Falls flowing in the background. I don't mean for that to sound offensive, but I'm going with the Niagara Falls...

I'm guessing you've never been to and seen Niagara Falls. It's not "the" Niagara Falls; no article is used because it's actually TWO large falls, one on the American side ("American Falls") and one on the Canadian side ("Horseshoe Falls"), the two separated by Goat Island.

You're welcome :) .

jlisenbe · Apr 10, 2020, 08:58 AM

I have been there. Your correction is well taken.

Thank you :)

Note: You did leave out Bridal Veil Falls, the third of the group.

Athos · Apr 10, 2020, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

As for Athos, you hold a position supported by a very much minority translation of two Greek words. I went through about ten mainstream, well-known NT translations and none of them agreed with your take on the two words in Mt. 25.

That's because they simply repeat the error of what others have already said. Here's a hint: look for those words in Plato and Aristotle where they obviously don't mean what Matthew's Greek is translated as.

So it's like your idea is water coming from a kitchen faucet with the Niagara Falls flowing in the background. I don't mean for that to sound offensive

That was never my idea. You're confusing yourself again.

, Jesus describing hell as both eternal and fiery. I realize that rubs you the wrong way which I think is unfortunate.

Once again, you are confusing the issue. My initial objection, which you opposed, was that your belief of unbelievers going to eternal punishment was wrong. You defended that position for several months until modifying it along the way, finally arriving at something like unbelievers/sinners go to hell leaving Jesus out of the equation.

Frankly, you don't seem to be able to put your belief in a simple sentence that all can understand. To now say that I don't believe in an eternal hell as punishment is nothing more than a deflection from your original position. In any case, my belief, which I have already stated, is irrelevant to the discussion which is about YOUR belief.

By the way, you are correct in one thing. The description of Jesus describing hell as both eternal and fiery absolutely "rubs me the wrong way". It is a horrible way to think of the "good and gentle Jesus" in that way.

Athos · Apr 10, 2020, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Everyone is free to believe what they will. I'm just advocating for a position. I don't know of any Biblical support of purgatory. Maybe it's there and I'm not aware of it, but as in all things, people can take it or leave it.

Of course, it's there. Google "Bible and Purgatory". Or just go to a Catholic website and examine their support for a Biblical purgatory. Can you do that? Will you? No one is forcing you to believe it, but you will see why it is believed.

Practically all of ancient history is dependent on the translation of ancient languages. The Bible, and in particular the NT, is actually extraordinarily well supported.

I frequently hear this claim.

1. It's simply not true. There is little extra-Biblical reference supporting Biblical claims.
2. It's frequently asked why do people believe there was a Caesar or Alexander or other historical figures and not believe in Jesus? It's because belief in Caesar has not come down to the present day as a god.

Wondergirl · Apr 10, 2020, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I have been there. Your correction is well taken.

Thank you :)

Note: You did leave out Bridal Veil Falls, the third of the group.

I didn't want to overload you with names. I grew up in a tiny community about an hour away and got to see the American side when it was "turned off" by the Army Corps of Engineers in 1969.
https://niagaracruises.com/blog/is-i...niagara-falls/

jlisenbe · Apr 10, 2020, 02:51 PM

Or maybe you just forgot? Anyway, I have seen pictures of that. I don't recall why it was done, but it was an amazing sight. I would love to have seen it in person. Isn't there some sort of large power station upstream from the Falls?

Wondergirl · Apr 10, 2020, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Or maybe you just forgot? Anyway, I have seen pictures of that. I don't recall why it was done, but it was an amazing sight. I would love to have seen it in person. Isn't there some sort of large power station upstream from the Falls?

No, I didn't forget!!! Sheesh!

Read the article to answer your questions. (There's a power station at the foot of the American Falls.)

Question for you: What's the striking difference between the two main falls?

jlisenbe · Apr 10, 2020, 03:25 PM

No, I didn't forget!!! Sheesh!

Well, your first explanation was phony, sooooooo??

Question for you: What's the striking difference between the two main falls?

Horseshoe Falls is much larger???

jlisenbe · Apr 10, 2020, 03:35 PM

That's because they simply repeat the error of what others have already said.

Sure they do. By the hundreds and hundreds, highly educated, thoroughly professional people just repeat an error that, it just so happens, disturbs you. It is a thousand times more likely that the mistake lies with you and not with them. Sorry, but I'm just not going to buy that idea. Very few reasonable people would. Besides, as I've said repeatedly, if hell is temporary, then so is heaven, for the same word is used to describe both of them.

Once again, you are confusing the issue. My initial objection, which you opposed, was that your belief of unbelievers going to eternal punishment was wrong. You defended that position for several months until modifying it along the way, finally arriving at something like unbelievers/sinners go to hell leaving Jesus out of the equation.

Frankly, you don't seem to be able to put your belief in a simple sentence that all can understand. To now say that I don't believe in an eternal hell as punishment is nothing more than a deflection from your original position. In any case, my belief, which I have already stated, is irrelevant to the discussion which is about YOUR belief.

I have never left Jesus out of the equation. You can't read Rev. 20 and get that idea. Sinners go to hell because of their sins. It is judgement for sin. Jesus is our deliverance from that fate. Jesus himself said, “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” That is the part that has you confused.

Of course, it's there. Google "Bible and Purgatory". Or just go to a Catholic website and examine their support for a Biblical purgatory. Can you do that? Will you? No one is forcing you to believe it, but you will see why it is believed.

If it's there, then post it. I'm not going to play the "google it" game. To be clear, I am looking for that "smoking gun" scripture that tells us about someone getting out of hell and going to heaven since he had suffered enough for his sins.

Practically all of ancient history is dependent on the translation of ancient languages. The Bible, and in particular the NT, is actually extraordinarily well supported.

I frequently hear this claim.

1. It's simply not true. There is little extra-Biblical reference supporting Biblical claims.
2. It's frequently asked why do people believe there was a Caesar or Alexander or other historical figures and not believe in Jesus? It's because belief in Caesar has not come down to the present day as a god.

Trying to find a historian who does not believe in the existence of Jesus is not easy. Josephus, Pliny the younger, Trajan himself, and several others testify to that. The controversy concerns the resurrection, not His existence.

The strange thing to me is this. Why do you bother with any of this if you don't believe in the authority of the Bible? Why would you care?