[jlisenbe]

Saying there is no quid pro quo is NOTHING unless proven,

I didn't say that. I said it was nothing period in and of itself. It's done in business all the time, millions of times a day. And if their FM and PM say there was no pressure on them, the money was delivered, and what Trump requested was not done, then I think you have a deep hole to scale out of.

[talaniman]

Just because it did not succeed doesn't change the fact he tried. If you shoot someone and miss does that mean it's NOT a crime?

[jlisenbe]

Just because it did not succeed doesn't change the fact he tried. If you shoot someone and miss does that mean it's NOT a crime?

The fact that the other party of the supposed qpq knew nothing of it tells us there was no qpq attempted. It takes two to tango.

[talaniman]

I can agree except for as pointed out earlier, we have not really established when Ukraine knew of the hold, and whether they could have done anything about it if they did know, which just adds to the criminality and diliberate bad intent of taking advantage of a helpless government. Your version of QPQ suggests some equality between the parties that obviously didn't exist or was agreed upon given that a country at war would be at the mercy and good grace of providers of the goods or services to execute that war.

Clearly Ukraine was a dependent in this case, so wheher they knew of the hold or not is immaterial. In effect any dancing done by them would hardly be voluntary, or of free will and good conscious, I would argue since they were effectively at the mercy of the US. That's a very vulnerable position to be in and enough too make the exchange of an investigation announcement for the needed supplies and weapons of war a leveraged QPQ they could hardly resist.

What is especially egregious here though is the assumption of no pressure that is also put forth citing public statements by the president and prime minister, and just submit how the hell could they even publicly admit such a thing? Who really could and chance losing support and supplies, and one thing the dufus is known for is making those that piss him off pay dearly. Just ask Flake, Corker, Sandford, or any senator that dares vote against him in this trial, or his political enemies period, real or perceived.