[jlisenbe]

These are good examples of how morality changes over time. They are all found in your Bible.

I'm not sure how to explain this any more plainly. For something to be discovered, it must exist. If it exists, then it has to be static. A lot of math has been "discovered" over the past centuries, but discovering it did not bring it into existence. It was always there, but just undiscovered. If we have "discovered" morality, then we have discovered what was always there in the mind of God. Either that, or we have made it up as we go along. In terms of the Bible, morality was not "discovered". It was revealed by God. It was something God did, and not what man did.

Fascinating, revealing comment. Unlike you, I find the movement of mankind over the millennia always tending to the good. To see it as an ugly affair explains your religious beliefs tending to condemn the great majority of humans who have ever lived to "eternal punishment in hell".

I would question your knowledge of history. The vast majority of humans who have ever lived did so in poverty. Wars have been constant. Illness, for most of history, has run rampant. Perhaps as much as 60% of the population of Europe, for instance, died of bubonic plague in the Middle Ages. Life was very, very hard. Living in the West, a culture heavily influenced by Christianity, might convince us otherwise, but that would be incorrect.

My comment about your faith in mankind is based on this statement of yours. "By the collective wisdom of a society based on informed individual consciences and learned over the history of human evolution." Now that sounds an awful lot like a faith in mankind's collective wisdom. You did not mention God. Perhaps you meant to but forgot.

Believing that, I don't know how you can find any joy in life.

My joy comes from knowing and following Jesus. It is not attached to this world. Where does your joy come from?

[Athos]

If it exists, then it has to be static.

You exist. You're not static.

In terms of the Bible, morality was not "discovered".

If man did not do the discovering, who did?

I would question your knowledge of history.

On what basis?

The vast majority of humans who have ever lived did so in poverty. Wars have been constant. Illness, for most of history, has run rampant. Perhaps as much as 60% of the population of Europe, for instance, died of bubonic plague in the Middle Ages. Life was very, very hard. Living in the West, a culture heavily influenced by Christianity, might convince us otherwise, but that would be incorrect.

Wow - it's hard to know where to start with this collection of historical misreading. 1) You don't understand the term "poverty". Think of it as relative and go on from there. 2) Wars have not been "constant". That reflects how you read history which often emphasizes wars. Ordinary life is not as interesting and doesn't get nearly as much press. See Social History. 3) Illness is just as "rampant" as it ever was. I think 60% is at the high end for plague, 30% would be closer. 4) "Life was very, very hard". In terms of YOUR life experience, probably so. Review the term"relative" again. 5) "Living in the West"... etc etc. This is precisely the mistake you are making with this post.

My comment about your faith in mankind is based on this statement of yours. "By the collective wisdom of a society based on informed individual consciences and learned over the history of human evolution." Now that sounds an awful lot like a faith in mankind's collective wisdom.

Yes, that is my statement. It was a reply to the question of morality. Yes, it is faith in mankind's collective wisdom.

You did not mention God. Perhaps you meant to but forgot.

The question was about morality. If you wish to talk about faith in God, why don't you just say so, instead of casting aspersions where you know not.

My joy comes from knowing and following Jesus. It is not attached to this world.

I have difficulty when you associate your "joy" with Jesus. This is the Jesus whom you associate with billions of human beings, including babies and children, being sent to everlasting punishment simply because they never heard of Jesus and COULD not believe in him. Or, just as bad, having heard of Jesus, they stuck by their own beliefs in preference to Jesus.

Where does your joy come from?

I take joy in the progress made over the millenia as humanity slowly moves to what Teilhard de Chardin called the Omega Point. Never smoothly, but always forward as in two steps forward, one step back.

[jlisenbe]

You exist. You're not static.

True, but I am here. I don't come into existence when someone discovers me, and they cannot imagine me to be something else when I am found. I'll say it again. You cannot "discover" what does not already exist, and the properties of that discovered object are fixed, just as mine are.

If man did not do the discovering, who did?

Go back and read my comment carefully. You will see the answer.

Wow - it's hard to know where to start with this collection of historical misreading. 1) You don't understand the term "poverty". Think of it as relative and go on from there. 2) Wars have not been "constant". That reflects how you read history which often emphasizes wars. Ordinary life is not as interesting and doesn't get nearly as much press. See Social History. 3) Illness is just as "rampant" as it ever was. I think 60% is at the high end for plague, 30% would be closer. 4) "Life was very, very hard". In terms of YOUR life experience, probably so. Review the term"relative" again. 5) "Living in the West"... etc etc. This is precisely the mistake you are making with this post.

Poverty? When you don't know what you will eat next week, or when your life expectancy is 40 years, or when half of newborns die, or when many women die in childbirth, or when freezing in the winter is a real possibility, or when you can reasonably expect to lose many of your teeth by age 35, or when finding clean water is a challenge, then yeah, I'd call that poverty in any time periood.

Wars have not been constant? Find the period in the last 2 millennia when there have not been wars and we'll talk about it.

Illness is as rampant now as ever? Wow. What a statement. Go back just to the Civil War where more soldiers died from illness in camps that in combat. Or go back to the flu epidemics or smallpox epidemics of just a hundred years ago. You wonder why I question your knowledge of history? Well, there you are.

As to Jesus, if you ever come to know Him, you will have the answer to your question. They stick to their own beliefs in preference to Him? A day is coming when the foolishness of that position will become evident to all. Now if Jesus is not who He claimed to be, then your statement is valid. But if He is, then it is nonsense.

Man's progress over the millenia? Go to many parts of Africa, South and Central America, Asia, even parts of our own country, and tell them about that wonderful progress. Go to Haiti and tell them about it. Get back with us and let us know what they say.

[Athos]

True, but I am...........................skip skip skip...............................................

You have completely missed the point I was trying to make. I will take the blame for that. It wasn't easy to understand.

As to Jesus, if you ever come to know Him, you will have the answer to your question. They stick to their own beliefs in preference to Him? A day is coming when the foolishness of that position will become evident to all. Now if Jesus is not who He claimed to be, then your statement is valid. But if He is, then it is nonsense.

You constantly avoid getting to the heart of this "question" - where your absurd belief sends unbelievers. Now you're saying beliefs other than yours are foolishness. There's a name for that - religious bigotry. Read The Good Samaritan.

Jesus has nothing to do with your belief. You would know that if you understood your Bible.

Man's progress over the millenia? Go to many parts of Africa, South and Central America, Asia, even parts of our own country, and tell them about that wonderful progress. Go to Haiti and tell them about it. Get back with us and let us know what they say.

The larger picture escapes you. I suggest you carefully read what I wrote. I don't think I can make it any simpler. You are blinded by your bias which is a not uncommon trait, but it can be overcome with a sincere effort.

[talaniman]

Man's progress over the millenia? Go to many parts of Africa, South and Central America, Asia, even parts of our own country, and tell them about that wonderful progress. Go to Haiti and tell them about it. Get back with us and let us know what they say.

I don't think going anywhere and calling people heathens or treating them like sheeple in need of shepherding helps if they are in tune with the world they live in. Just because they haven't developed as technically advanced as others doesn't mean converting them to your way of thinking will make them happy. You can teach them these new technology's to make their lives better without the conversion can't you? Or do you hold those things as leverage to your conversion tacti?

I take your comment as talking down your nose at other cultures, but I'm sure that's not your intentions, nor meant to imply that you cannot be happy without Christ.

[jlisenbe]

You have completely missed the point I was trying to make. I will take the blame for that. It wasn't easy to understand.

Man. What a statement. You try to present an argument which cannot be defended, and then seem to suggest that you are the only one smart enough to understand it. Wow.

You constantly avoid getting to the heart of this "question" - where your absurd belief sends unbelievers. Now you're saying beliefs other than yours are foolishness. There's a name for that - religious bigotry. Read The Good Samaritan.

Interesting how you appeal to one part of the Bible (good Samaritan) to explain away a different part of the Bible such as, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." At any rate, my beliefs don't send anyone anywhere. And I'll say it again. If Jesus is who He said He was, then we should listen to Him with all our hearts. If not, then we can do what we please. I have no patience with those who advocate some kind of middle ground.

Jesus has nothing to do with your belief. You would know that if you understood your Bible.

And again, if we understood everything as well, I suppose, as you do, we would all agree with you. You'll have to make a much more substantial appeal than that. You make no appeals to scripture other than to assure me that I don't understand it. Well, have a go at explaining it. We are all listening.

Honestly, I don't like exchanging ideas with you. When you are cornered, you try to suggest that I don't understand this or that, with the clear inference that you do. No explanations are offered. You cannot explain, for instance, how someone can discover that which is not already there. You just propose the idea that a person, it would seem, must be Athos to get all of this. I find that I am constantly walking a fine line between being honest and being kind. It is a difficult task.

[talaniman]

Should not who one opens their heart and mind to be a choice they make for themselves?

[jlisenbe]

I don't think going anywhere and calling people heathens or treating them like sheeple in need of shepherding helps if they are in tune with the world they live in. Just because they haven't developed as technically advanced as others doesn't mean converting them to your way of thinking will make them happy. You can teach them these new technology's to make their lives better without the conversion can't you? Or do you hold those things as leverage to your conversion tacti?

I take your comment as talking down your nose at other cultures, but I'm sure that's not your intentions, nor meant to imply that you cannot be happy without Christ.

I didn't talk about converting anyone. Athos suggested that we have made all of this wonderful progress, and that would seem to be a fair enough point. My comments were only made to point out that there are many, many people on this earth who still live in poverty and virtually constant danger. Do some reading on Haiti, for instance. I've been to Guatemala. It is a completely different world. Look at how quickly Venezuela went backwards to grinding poverty. As for technology, all it's going to take is for one madman to push the button one of these days, and we'll all be back in the Middle Ages. Don't kid yourself. The heart of man has not changed.

I am definitely not degrading anyone. It's simply a recognition that life is super tough on many parts of this planet.

Should not who one opens their heart and mind to be a choice they make for themselves?

Who has suggested otherwise?

[Athos]

Man. What a statement. You try to present an argument which cannot be defended, and then seem to suggest that you are the only one smart enough to understand it. Wow.
Interesting how you appeal to one part of the Bible (good Samaritan) to explain away a different part of the Bible such as, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." At any rate, my beliefs don't send anyone anywhere. And I'll say it again. If Jesus is who He said He was, then we should listen to Him with all our hearts. If not, then we can do what we please. I have no patience with those who advocate some kind of middle ground.
And again, if we understood everything as well, I suppose, as you do, we would all agree with you. You'll have to make a much more substantial appeal than that. You make no appeals to scripture other than to assure me that I don't understand it. Well, have a go at explaining it. We are all listening.
Honestly, I don't like exchanging ideas with you. When you are cornered, you try to suggest that I don't understand this or that, with the clear inference that you do. No explanations are offered. You cannot explain, for instance, how someone can discover that which is not already there. You just propose the idea that a person, it would seem, must be Athos to get all of this. I find that I am constantly walking a fine line between being honest and being kind. It is a difficult task.

I think I struck a nerve. That was not my intention, but it is what it is.

[jlisenbe]

I think I struck a nerve. That was not my intention, but it is what it is.

You did. People who cannot defend their positions irritate me.

[Athos]

You did. People who cannot defend their positions irritate me.

By far, the biggest non-defense of a position is your position that unbelievers go to hell where they are punished for eternity. Nothing else you maintain comes close.

[jlisenbe]

By far, the biggest non-defense of a position is your position that unbelievers go to hell where they are punished for eternity. Nothing else you maintain comes close.

I have defended it well, but you don't agree, so that's where we are. I am comfortable with what I've said and I imagine you feel the same way about your comments. I'm moving on.

[paraclete]

I'm moving on.

If only these debates could move on

[jlisenbe]

If only these debates could move on

I don't think anyone is compelled to read them.

[Vacuum7]

For me, it is much more of a confined argument: I believe in the mystery of faith. All of philosophical arguments in world cannot shake that belief. Following the teachings of Jesus is the methodology by which to get to heaven and attain eternal life/life ever after death. Following Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone, is the only way to get to heaven.

If Jesus said it, then, that is that....it really doesn't matter if you believe it or not! This is the part of the understanding that many people "don't get".....there is the false narrative out there that there are many choices available and that all these choices will get you to the same answer/same place: This is a false teaching that will condemn your soul.

Your beliefs are of your own free will but only one belief will provide you with eternal life.

[talaniman]

I can admire and respect those of strong faith. To each his own. Call before you come over please.

[jlisenbe]

Vac, I like a lot of what you say except to say that faith is a mystery. To me, there are many reasons to believe that the Bible is authentic and true. I love scriptures such as this one. "1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us."

He is saying that he did not make the story up.

[Wondergirl]

JL, my favorite is this one, Micah 6:8. We used it at my younger son's funeral last year. It was his life in just a few words:

"what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justice, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God”

[Vacuum7]

jlisenbe: The Mystery Of Faith simply means that you accept the world as it is, without having to know exactly how or why all in the universe exist or why.....as long as you believe in Him, nothing else really matters.

[jlisenbe]

JL, my favorite is this one, Micah 6:8. We used it at my younger son's funeral last year. It was his life in just a few words:

Very sorry to hear of that loss for you. I preached my nephew's funeral a few weeks ago. He was only 46. It is tough. God bless you in your healing process.