[talaniman]

I must say JL your post intrigues me and a fair question that goes to not just accountability but reasonable transparency. So I submit this interest site I found for some background. It has a myriad of good links and history of the system that might provide some insights.

https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.ed...relationships/

1. We are both up mighty early to be retired.

I'm always up early, I generally retire early too.

2. I'm not a huge fan of SS, but it is not welfare. They are not the same thing.

I love my SS! I feel I EARNED it, and more

3. The only way government has taken on the job of welfare is to borrow money like crazy. Otherwise, the tax rates would be much higher and no one would stand for it. So it's a song and dance they do with us.

I could find no reference to borrowing for welfare by feds or state governments, however the government adds to the deficit without pay fors when they cut taxes for rich guys, and to a vastly lesser extent for everyone else.

4. No American has any right to take money from another American without their agreement. That is the welfare system pure and simple. It is liberals trying to appear to be caring and generous so long as they can be caring and generous with someone else's money.

No American does, but we all pay the same taxes and a majority since the Great Depression wanted a Social Safety Net, I think I explained that already and clarified the distinction and note your disagreement to the whole thing. I sort of feel the same way about the military budget among other things.

5. Governments do not help "it's people". Government can only take money from one person by force and give it to another person, and then the members of that government can go about bragging that they care so much for humanity that they pour out help upon them with someone else's money. I despise that more than I can say. If a person helps with his/her own resources, then they are to be commended. If they insist on simply taking money from A to give to B, they are not to placed on a high plane.

History shows us that volunteers, churches, and private charity is woefully inadequate to meet the needs of the poor, children, and older folks, let alone those that are poor.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federa...tax-dollars-go

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com...ending_40.html

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dr...nworking-poor/

So I take issue with governments don't, nor should help people, or that people don't need help, or that churches and charities alone are enough.

6. But since you have properly identified me as a "Bible thumper", then let me propose a Bible solution. In the OT, everyone was required to pay in 10% of their produce every third year for the purpose of helping the poor. If we want to start a special "welfare tax" of 3.3% every year for the purpose of funding welfare, and with the understanding that only that money can be used for welfare, then I could be talked into that.

Whatever taxes you paid go for welfare and military, and other spending (A WALL?), but in what percentages, I don't know, but old testament figures would I suspect, be inadequate. I'm still looking to break it down for clarity and verification.

I suppose that solving poverty would help wouldn't it? Hmm, it occurred to me that maybe identifying the causes of poverty would be a start and eliminating those CAUSES would be GREAT. Thoughts?

[Wondergirl]

So I take issue with governments don't, nor should help people, or that people don't need help, or that churches and charities alone are enough.

I agree. I had a bachelor uncle who worked hard all his life and saved his money so he could travel after he retired. Well, that didn't work out too well. He had a bypass and, after he retired, had cardiac problems that put him in a nursing home that he paid for over a five-year period with his entire savings of $250k+. The nursing home gave me POA and sent me (his only living relative within 600 miles) to the public aid office to apply for Medicaid for him. Medicaid was granted, and that paid for his care for the next year or so until he died.

What would have happened to him without Medicaid?

[jlisenbe]

I could find no reference to borrowing for welfare by feds or state governments, however the government adds to the deficit without pay fors when they cut taxes for rich guys, and to a vastly lesser extent for everyone else.

Fantasy land. We've added over 14 trillion in debt in less than 20 years. There is absolutely no conceivable plan of taxing the rich that would make up that difference short of taking 100%, which no one with even half a brain has proposed, including the new dem darling, Ocasio-Cortez.

I suppose that solving poverty would help wouldn't it?

I cannot possibly say this too emphatically. There is no amount of giving of money that will solve the problem of poverty. The poverty is most often a poverty of soul. Ben Carson's mother is a great example of a person who discovered how to break the cycle of poverty, and it did not center around someone giving them a bunch of money. Carson is a doctor, and his brother is literally a rocket scientist.

I agree. I had a bachelor uncle who worked hard all his life and saved his money so he could travel after he retired. Well, that didn't work out too well. He had a bypass and, after he retired, had cardiac problems that put him in a nursing home that he paid for over a five-year period with his entire savings of $250k+. The nursing home gave me POA and sent me (his only living relative within 600 miles) to the public aid office to apply for Medicaid for him. Medicaid was granted, and that paid for his care for the next year or so until he died.

Medicaid is tied with SS, so that was NOT welfare at work. But if it had not been there, what would have been wrong with you and his other extended family members taking care of him? Worked that way for centuries. For that matter, what would have been done if he had not qualified for Medicare?

[Wondergirl]

For that matter, what would have been done if he had not qualified for Medicare?

I don't know what we would have done. My husband and I worked FT, mostly paycheck to paycheck, and still lived in our tiny starter home. My uncle had one brother, my father, a Lutheran pastor who had the lowest salary in his congregation. All other relatives my age or older had died. What would we have done? I honestly don't know.

[jlisenbe]

I suspect you would have done what many others have done. The family would have banded together and figured out a way. It would not have been easy, but it would have been honorable. Do I think the government should force others around you to contribute to the cause? No.

[talaniman]

That's great if you have a family that can band together and care for the elders until they die to begin with, like they did when family was local, and somebody wasn't working to make ends meet, usually a female, but not always, and only if the elderly didn't have other conditions that required trained medical people. Solutions that worked centuries ago, or even a decade ago are not always solutions for everybody, nor is everyone capable to care for their elders. That's when you need more options. What if families have more than one elder?

What if you are poor and so is your elders?

[tomder55]

woooohoo !! Mueller stormed Roger Stone's home like the Normandy invasion ;and invited CNN to be his personal Ernie Pyle. And …………...he is charging him with a process crime .

Stone will be given the Manafort treatment in the hope that he breaks and gives up the Trump campaign (no Stone was not part of the campaign) . He was in communication with WikiLeaks and was trying to find out what they knew .

What really surprises me is the lengths that people around Trump went to try and find out what was leaked . You would think that if they were "colluding " with the Ruskies that they would know what the Ruskies knew about Evita's campaign.

[talaniman]

Vlad ain't that stupid, he can let the dufus and his sycophants take the fall. Glad you finally recovered from New Years.

8D

[jlisenbe]

What if you are poor and so is your elders?

Then of course you need to send the government out to about fifty neighbors and require them to contribute to the cause at the risk of going to jail if they fail to pony up. This is also known as "taxation". Sounds a lot more vulgar when you get this kind of accurate picture of it.

[Wondergirl]

Then of course you need to send the government out to about fifty neighbors and require them to contribute to the cause at the risk of going to jail if they fail to pony up. This is also known as "taxation". Sounds a lot more vulgar when you get this kind of accurate picture of it.

No, no! You go to your church family and present your case and humbly ask for financial help throughout the 18 months until Uncle dies. Oh, and he'll need a place to live and round-the-clock care, so ask them for that, too.

[jlisenbe]

Better alternative than taking money from your neighbors against their will.

[Wondergirl]

Better alternative than taking money from your neighbors against their will.

But they'd say No, we can't set a precedent.

[talaniman]

woooohoo !! Mueller stormed Roger Stone's home like the Normandy invasion ;and invited CNN to be his personal Ernie Pyle. And …………...he is charging him with a process crime .

Stone will be given the Manafort treatment in the hope that he breaks and gives up the Trump campaign (no Stone was not part of the campaign) . He was in communication with WikiLeaks and was trying to find out what they knew .

What really surprises me is the lengths that people around Trump went to try and find out what was leaked . You would think that if they were "colluding " with the Ruskies that they would know what the Ruskies knew about Evita's campaign.

They do that to poor people all the time but at least Stone had bail money and a lawyer, as opposed to no bail money and a public defender. What's a process crime? Did you mean in the process of connecting Stone WikiLeaks and the dufus together?

Then of course you need to send the government out to about fifty neighbors and require them to contribute to the cause at the risk of going to jail if they fail to pony up. This is also known as "taxation". Sounds a lot more vulgar when you get this kind of accurate picture of it.

I feel the same way about the wall you and the dufus are so hyped about.

[talaniman]

[jlisenbe]

But they say No, we can't set a precedent.

I can't imagine a group of Christians saying such a thing. Perhaps you need to find new friends and a new church. Don't mean that ugly at all, but we have been told to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Sad that your uncle had to endure such an end.

[talaniman]

Maybe you should get out a bit more and see the rest of the world, or better yet stay grateful for your own blessings. I'm actually glad you live among such good people.

[Wondergirl]

I can't imagine a group of Christians saying such a thing. Perhaps you need to find new friends and a new church. Don't mean that ugly at all, but we have been told to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Sad that your uncle had to endure such an end.

He was very happy in the nursing home (with Medicaid paying the last 18 months) and died during a nap. Would that we all have such a peaceful end.

[jlisenbe]

Maybe you should get out a bit more and see the rest of the world, or better yet stay grateful for your own blessings.

I don't really know what your point is, but I have been around a good bit. I do know that people in my state tend to take their Christian faith more seriously than in many other states, but I could be wrong about that. Still, if a church did not want to help someone lest it "set a precedent", then I wouldn't go back there.

[talaniman]

My point is church and religion cannot minister to a persons body nor help him pay for it. Like I said if an elder has no family willing to help him through his physical needs, then what?

[jlisenbe]

My point is church and religion cannot minister to a persons body nor help him pay for it.

Strange. I've seen it happen. I once attended a church where a man needed 140k for a lung transplant. They raised it, or at least most of it (Been a few years ago and I don't remember every detail). I've seen God heal people. Again, maybe you need to find a different church.

One way or the other, the answer is not to force one American to pay for the medical care of another, any more than it would be right to force you to pay for my car or my house.