[jlisenbe]

I'm not surprised you refuse to engage in discussion. Your position is patently absurd - that those who do not believe as you do are destined to a hell of everlasting punishment. To make matters worse, you further claim Jesus himself held the same position about belief in him being necessary to avoid hell.

You just don't like what Jesus said. I'll quote Him again, and just hope it will do some good. As I've said before, your argument is not with me, it is with Him, and the day is coming when you will see Him face to face, and then you can defend yourself if possible.

You can particularly direct your attention to verse 18.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned,but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.


39 Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.” 40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” 41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

[talaniman]

Hello JL, I can really admire one who is so dedicated to something greater than themselves and it doesn't matter what you call it. Really doesn't matter where you get it from either. I fully understand sharing such a blessing with others but where we conflict, is do you really have to tell others how miserable they are unless they accept your message?

[jlisenbe]

do you really have to tell others how miserable they are unless they accept your message?

And hello back to you, Tal. Now I don't recall saying any such thing. If I have, put the quote here, for I would need to ask forgiveness if I have told anyone to accept what is merely my thoughts. If you will look a little more closely, what I have done is simply put the words of Jesus here. I try to make sure that my beliefs come from His beliefs. I would actively discourage anyone from accepting any belief simply because I say it. I try to always point people to the words of Jesus. Evidently I have been less than clear in that effort.

[talaniman]

That could well be true JL, as well as my own misunderstanding and while I won't look for the specific post I remember it had to do with condemning other Christians for not following the word correctly, closely, or something to that affect. I doubt many christians have your level of bible training or scholarship, or exposure which would make a big difference I feel.

[jlisenbe]

condemning other Christians

I hope I am not doing that, but knowing my own tendency to stray, it's possible. I am resting my life on the Gospel. To have God as my Father and Jesus as my Savior is pretty much my life. I highly recommend it.

I do enjoy our discussions.

[Wondergirl]

I doubt many christians have your level of bible training or scholarship, or exposure which would make a big difference I feel.

I have and I disagree with him. I lean much more toward the understandings posted by Athos and dwashbur who possess far more Bible training and scholarship than do JL and I.

[jlisenbe]

I have and I disagree with him.

About what?

BTW, you don't know my level of Bible training, so how do you know if you have the same level? For that matter, how would you know that anyone else possesses "far more" Bible training and scholarship?

[talaniman]

I hope I am not doing that, but knowing my own tendency to stray, it's possible. I am resting my life on the Gospel. To have God as my Father and Jesus as my Savior is pretty much my life. I highly recommend it.

I do enjoy our discussions.

I got no problem with it I love the history of man and how they coped with their times. Many lessons to learn. You aren't the most intense person around though, but you are intense. That's not necessarily a bad thing and who am I to judge! Disagreements among scholars and even ordinary people are natural in my view.

[jlisenbe]

but you are intense.

Yeah, that's true. I try to back it off, but it don't come easy! Still, we're both intense, so I guess that's why I am comfortable discussing these things with you. We can get a little wound up, but the next day we're back on a level plane.

[Athos]

I'll quote Him again, and just hope it will do some good. and the day is coming when you will see Him face to face, and then you can defend yourself if possible.

Here you are, threatening again.

You can particularly direct your attention to verse 18.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned,but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Nowhere in this quote does Jesus refer to hell as an eternal punishment. "Condemned", also translated as "judged", does not mean eternal punishment. You have interpreted it in this way to justify your own belief. For a better understanding of this quote, read further into John's Gospel.

39 Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.” 40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” 41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

This quote refers to guilt, not eternal punishment.

Look within yourself for the source of this pernicious belief of non-believers damned to hell.

[talaniman]

Yeah, that's true. I try to back it off, but it don't come easy! Still, we're both intense, so I guess that's why I am comfortable discussing these things with you. We can get a little wound up, but the next day we're back on a level plane.

That's an accurate observation. You're a stubborn "old' coot! Takes one to know one, eh?

8D

@Athos

I have found the language and references of ancient man cannot always be fulling applied to a modern understanding without a proper context so your point is well taken, but one of my reservations in taking the bible as an ultimate modern relevance is that lack of context or updating, though I have found many sights that adds good context to the words by bible scholars, absent from regular preachers and word givers. That's my rub.

I don't know if John was proselytizing, or rebuffing his audience. He would have made a great lawyer though if the judge was fair.

[Athos]

@Athos

I have found the language and references of ancient man cannot always be fulling applied to a modern understanding without a proper context so your point is well taken, but one of my reservations in taking the bible as an ultimate modern relevance is that lack of context or updating, though I have found many sights that adds good context to the words by bible scholars, absent from regular preachers and word givers.

I agree that taking things out of context is not a good practice. Taking them out of time can often be worse.

Jlisenb, promoting hell for non-believers, does both.

Suggesting that Jesus is the one to have this discusssion with is simply his way of not being able to defend a weak position.

[jlisenbe]

Nowhere in this quote does Jesus refer to hell as an eternal punishment. "Condemned", also translated as "judged", does not mean eternal punishment. You have interpreted it in this way to justify your own belief. For a better understanding of this quote, read further into John's Gospel.

Or you can read this. Yes, you will have to discuss it with Him. There are plain and clear meanings in scripture. Your primary objection seems to be that Jesus just refuses to teach what you already believe, so you quibble about the details.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did itto one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

[Athos]

There are plain and clear meanings in scripture.

<skip>


Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did itto one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

You are making my case for me.

Nowhere in this lengthy section quoting Jesus does he condemn non-believers to hell.

In fact, his judgment is against the "righteous" (believers), and not for unbelief but for inaction - not feeding the hungry, not helping the sick, not clothing the naked, etc.

Here Jesus clearly places action above belief.

[jlisenbe]

You can split the hair any way you want, but the point is that Jesus is condemning people to hell.

I don't think He is putting action above belief. He is demonstrating that actions FOLLOW beliefs. How can a believer in Christ not care for the unfortunate? That belief is paramount is shown clearly in John 3:16. Those who believe in Jesus will not perish. Clearly, those who do NOT believe will perish.

I am all for helping the poor and have done so for decades. Jesus plainly taught we should do so. I am opposed to those who wish to demonstrate their supposedly charitable inclinations by compelling OTHERS to help the poor. Jesus taught that I am to help the poor, but He most certainly never taught that I am to compel you to help the poor.

[Athos]

You can split the hair any way you want, but the point is that Jesus is condemning people to hell.

You changed the point. It is not about "Jesus condemning people to hell". It is about YOUR belief that non-believers are condemned to hell. Quite a difference and hardly hair-splitting.

When challenged, you retreat behind accusations of splitting hairs, quote sections of the New Testament that clearly do not support your position, and even suggest discussing the issue with Jesus!

I don't think He is putting action above belief.

If belief is necessary for salvation, then why are the righteous in your quotation condemned?

[jlisenbe]

If belief is necessary for salvation, then why are the righteous in your quotation condemned?

Because, as I said, actions follow (reveal, illuminate) beliefs.

It is about YOUR belief that non-believers are condemned to hell.

Uhm... if that is not what John 3:16 says, then what does it say?

You have such a strange belief, that believers are going to be condemned and unbelievers are going to be redeemed. Where in the Bible do you get such a belief?

Since I seem to be the only one here quoting Jesus, I'll try it again. "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."

So is that a reference to believers in Sodom, or unbelievers? What do you believe will happen on "the day of judgement"?

[Athos]

Because, as I said, actions follow (reveal, illuminate) beliefs.

Then actions are also necessary for salvation. Since, without them, the righteous perish.

Uhm... if that is not what John 3:16 says, then what does it say?

It says believers shall have eternal life. Your other quote says everlasting fire awaits those who do not feed, clothe, visit, etc. even though they're believers.

You have such a strange belief, that believers are going to be condemned and unbelievers are going to be redeemed. Where in the Bible do you get such a belief?

You have no idea what my beliefs are. Yet you think you know what they are. In any case, the issue is YOUR belief that non-believers are condemned to hell.

Since I seem to be the only one here quoting Jesus, I'll try it again.

You are quoting Jesus but drawing the wrong conclusion about belief and condemnation which has been pointed out to you several times now.

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."

So is that a reference to believers in Sodom, or unbelievers? What do you believe will happen on "the day of judgement"?

The reference to Sodom may be believers or unbelievers or both. Whatever happens on the day of judgment, I can assure you that non-believers will not be judged to go to hell.

[jlisenbe]

It says believers shall have eternal life.

You're being evasive. The clear and obvious implication is that all are perishing, but that through believing in Christ, believers "shall not perish", obviously meaning that non-believers will. A second grader could see that.

I can assure you that non-believers will not be judged to go to hell.

So where in the Bible does it tell us that non-believers are not going to be judged? I have provided a half-dozen or so quotes from Jesus where He disagrees with you, so I guess I'm going to stick with what He says.

You are quoting Jesus but drawing the wrong conclusion about belief and condemnation which has been pointed out to you several times now.

You are evidently drawing your conclusions from the Gospel of Athos. The statements of Jesus are plain. You have made no references to scripture at all, but only state your opinion. Sorry, but that's not good enough. But just to take one more stab at it, in Revelation 20 we read, "And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." Now just for the record, I find that concept troubling, but since I didn't write the Bible, and since it is clear that God's wisdom far exceeds mine, I just simply accept it.

[Wondergirl]

"And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation was written for those living in Nero's time. As my pastor told us, "It was written in code and has not yet been completely decoded."