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talaniman · Nov 7, 2018, 07:59 AM

It's no miracle in my opinion that we do much better BUILDING on our commonality as humans, instead of fighting over artificial differences.

Athos · Nov 8, 2018, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Your argument is with the words of Jesus, and not with mine. I'll let you argue with Him.

No, my argument (your word) is with you, not Jesus. Do you have the courage of your convictions or do you wish to simply transfer the onus of persuasion elsewhere? Obviously, I can't argue with Jesus - he's not here. Then there's the problem of words purportedly spoken by Jesus and finally canonized three centuries after his time on earth.

(My apologies for being late responding. I missed this the first time around).

jlisenbe · Nov 8, 2018, 07:02 AM

No, my argument (your word) is with you, not Jesus. Do you have the courage of your convictions or do you wish to simply transfer the onus of persuasion elsewhere? Obviously, I can't argue with Jesus - he's not here. Then there's the problem of words purportedly spoken by Jesus and finally canonized three centuries after his time on earth.

I simply told you what Jesus said. You have to choose what you do with them. My courage, or possible lack thereof, has nothing to do with the truth. If you don't accept the words of Christ, then you need to decide whose words you do accept.

talaniman · Nov 8, 2018, 07:07 AM

I can only respectfully submit that developing a personal relationship with the god that you understand is better than relying on the words of ancient men, or even modern ones.

jlisenbe · Nov 8, 2018, 08:20 AM

I can only respectfully submit that developing a personal relationship with the god that you understand is better than relying on the words of ancient men, or even modern ones.

I respectfully submit that what you are proposing, the idea that everyone gets to have their own god and therefore their own truth, is just a flight of fantasy and ignores the meaning of the word "truth". As to accepting the words of ancient or modern man, you have to accept someone's words. In what you are suggesting, you are accepting your own words and thoughts. Well, you better be fantastically smart if you expect that to work.

talaniman · Nov 8, 2018, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I respectfully submit that what you are proposing, the idea that everyone gets to have their own god and therefore their own truth, is just a flight of fantasy and ignores the meaning of the word "truth". As to accepting the words of ancient or modern man, you have to accept someone's words. In what you are suggesting, you are accepting your own words and thoughts. Well, you better be fantastically smart if you expect that to work.

Bingo! You are catching on finally. Who and what I believe is MY choice. I am very grateful it has worked so well for me and smart has nothing to do with it.

BLESSED would be a more accurate word given my own flaws, foibles and mistakes, but gratitude is my attitude. May you have peace in your own journey through life.

jlisenbe · Nov 8, 2018, 10:50 AM

Who and what I believe is MY choice.

I've never said otherwise. I have pointed out, however, that you or I believing something does not make it true. The idea is to find the truth and believe that. We can believe what we want, but we cannot change the truth.

Wondergirl · Nov 8, 2018, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I've never said otherwise. I have pointed out, however, that you or I believing something does not make it true. The idea is to find the truth and believe that. We can believe what we want, but we cannot change the truth.

The idea is to find the truth and believe that.

Thus, you believe that YOUR truth, the one that you found, is the REAL and ONLY truth.

talaniman · Nov 8, 2018, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I've never said otherwise. I have pointed out, however, that you or I believing something does not make it true. The idea is to find the truth and believe that. We can believe what we want, but we cannot change the truth.

We could both be wrong! 8I

jlisenbe · Nov 8, 2018, 01:42 PM

Thus, you believe that YOUR truth, the one that you found, is the REAL and ONLY truth.

And you don't?

That's part of the nature of truth. It is exclusive, so you can't just choose your own truth like on a smörgåsbord. Either you have the truth or you have something other than the truth. Yes, I am convinced the Bible contains the truth, and that Jesus, as He said, IS the truth. You can feel free to disagree with Him if you like.

Wondergirl · Nov 8, 2018, 02:06 PM

Yes, I am convinced the Bible contains the truth, and that Jesus, as He said, IS the truth.

What proof do you have? If you had been born into a Muslim family, you would believe the Qur'an contains the truth.

paraclete · Nov 8, 2018, 02:08 PM

The evidence is there you just don't want to see it

Wondergirl · Nov 8, 2018, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by paraclete

The evidence is there you just don't want to see it

I see it. I'm a Christian born and bred. But how does a Christian convince someone from another faith that the Christian's holy book is the Truth?

talaniman · Nov 8, 2018, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

And you don't?

That's part of the nature of truth. It is exclusive, so you can't just choose your own truth like on a smörgåsbord. Either you have the truth or you have something other than the truth. Yes, I am convinced the Bible contains the truth, and that Jesus, as He said, IS the truth. You can feel free to disagree with Him if you like.

Don't have to, I can see where your truth is taking you. NO THANKS!

What proof do you have? If you had been born into a Muslim family, you would believe the Qur'an contains the truth.

All the true believers say that about their faith WG, no matter what evidence is presented.

The evidence is there you just don't want to see it

I agree but that cuts more than one way.

talaniman · Nov 8, 2018, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I see it. I'm a Christian born and bred. But how does a Christian convince someone from another faith that the Christian's holy book is the Truth?

You could start by breaking bread and exchanging ideas and giving respect like was done before. You seem to be the only one here that has had such social contacts with people of other faiths WG, and maybe that's the truth we all could stand to see. Personal interaction. There is no need to convince or convert.

Just SHARE.

Wondergirl · Nov 8, 2018, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

You could start by breaking bread and exchanging ideas and giving respect like was done before. You seem to be the only one here that has had such social contacts with people of other faiths WG, and maybe that's the truth we all could stand to see. Personal interaction. There is no need to convince or convert.

Just SHARE.

And that's what I said to do earlier in one of these threads.

"I would have asked them about their faith, their beliefs and learned as much as I could, would have shared with them the features of Christianity that were especially common to their faith."

talaniman · Nov 8, 2018, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And that's what I said to do earlier in one of these threads.

"I would have asked them about their faith, their beliefs and learned as much as I could, would have shared with them the features of Christianity that were especially common to their faith."

That's a winner in my book WG,since you actually would first have to be in a position of personal interaction, and secondly have to LISTEN to learn what you have in common. I seriously doubt the naysayers (Including those of other religions.) have done either.

Wondergirl · Nov 8, 2018, 06:59 PM

seriously doubt the naysayers (Including those of other religions.) have done either.

Interestingly enough, Christianity is the only religion I know of that proselytizes -- "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt. 28:19 KJV).

jlisenbe · Nov 9, 2018, 05:29 AM

I see it. I'm a Christian born and bred. But how does a Christian convince someone from another faith that the Christian's holy book is the Truth?

Show them what you see.

Do you think that a person must have some degree of hunger for us to be able to show them much? That's where our prayers come in. The Holy Spirit must awaken a hunger in their hearts. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them..."

Athos · Nov 9, 2018, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I simply told you what Jesus said. You have to choose what you do with them. .... If you don't accept the words of Christ, then you need to decide whose words you do accept.

I'm not surprised you refuse to engage in discussion. Your position is patently absurd - that those who do not believe as you do are destined to a hell of everlasting punishment. To make matters worse, you further claim Jesus himself held the same position about belief in him being necessary to avoid hell.

Whoever told you this did you a serious disservice. The disservice is compounded as you pass this false idea to others.

I think it reflects something deep in your own psyche. This may be why you see a society exercising compassion through government - government of the people, by the people, and for the people - as some wicked device to take from some to give to others. The Judeo-Christian God commanded his people to take care of each other. Government of hundreds of millions is a far more efficient way to do that than each person relying on himself or his local church. But that's a side issue. The main issue is your condemning most of the world to hell because of how/what they believe. If you step back, you may see the weakness of that.