[J_9]

Okay, seriously, why after so long away from the site did you decide to crawl out from under the rock you have been living under to come back and wreak havoc?

What is your agenda?

AMHD was trucking along just fine having civil discussions until you reared your ugly head.

You are breeding the hatred and loving it. It's people like you that intensified the Watts Riots 50 years ago.

If if racism is a problem, what is your solution? Rather than baiting us with your hatred, why don't you provide us with your solution.

[talaniman]

Anybody armed in public may be considered a threat unless you know their intentions. I have no doubt an armed black guy in your neighborhood would elicit more than a few calls to the cops.

Why shouldn't we call a cop on you?

[excon]

What is your agenda?

Hello again, J:

Hate??? Looks like YOU'RE the one spewing hatred, talking about rocks an all.. I'm just doing what I always did, and that's upset the apple cart.. Nice to see you again too.

Want my solution??? End the drug war.. I believe you've heard me say that innumerable times.

excon

[excon]

Hello again,

J brings up a good point - a SOLUTION..

I say the SYSTEM is systemically RACIST and needs to be changed. Others of you think the system is just fine, but we need to change those black people.. If I'm getting it right, there are posts on this thread that say, and I'm paraphrasing, black people don't understand family.. Black women get pregnant to collect more welfare. Black men never stay at home...

Look.. I know there are those of you who DON'T like this discussion, and you'll accuse ME of race baiting because I BRING it up, but the SENTIMENT is clear.. The system is just FINE. The problem is with black people.

excon

[Wondergirl]

Whites have that same problem with no family unit and their kids at sea. Unfortunately, that's true in my own extended family. And parenting is the problem. Personal responsibility isn't being taught. It's much too easy to crank out a kid and fling him to the four winds. Methinks a couple should have to take courses first and get certified or licensed. After all, we can't even legally drive a car or get married or own a gun without some kind of education and/or legal paperwork.

[tomder55]

Hello again,

J brings up a good point - a SOLUTION..

I say the SYSTEM is systemically RACIST and needs to be changed. Others of you think the system is just fine, but we need to change those black people.. If I'm getting it right, there are posts on this thread that say, and I'm paraphrasing, black people don't understand family.. Black women get pregnant to collect more welfare. Black men never stay at home...

Look.. I know there are those of you who DON'T like this discussion, and you'll accuse ME of race baiting because I BRING it up, but the SENTIMENT is clear.. The system is just FINE. The problem is with black people.

excon

Just stating the facts .

15 years later ,a Moynihan loyal economist named Paul Offner did a study and concluded that , of the black children born between 1967 and 1969, 72 percent received Aid to Families with Dependent Children before the age of 18. School dropout rates, delinquency, and crime, were rising in the cities. The 15 years since the report was written had witnessed the birth of millions of fatherless babies ,and the entrenchment of a permanent underclass. The effects were immediate after the War on Poverty was codified into law while also ignoring the Moynihan report .

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/curren...ml#post3740384

The Moynihan report was also dismissed as racist and ignored . Then most of the things in his clarion call came true.

[smoothy]

Hello again, J:

Hate??? Looks like YOU'RE the one spewing hatred, talking about rocks an all.. I'm just doing what I always did, and that's upset the apple cart.. Nice to see you again too.

Want my solution??? End the drug war.. I believe you've heard me say that innumerable times.

excon

Ah.. so now we get to your "Agenda", make drugs legal, Cocain, crank, smack... all of it so the non-drug abusers can be victimized by the addicts... maybe we should make drunk driving legal again too.

Whites have that same problem with no family unit and their kids at sea. Unfortunately, that's true in my own extended family. And parenting is the problem. Personal responsibility isn't being taught. It's much too easy to crank out a kid and fling him to the four winds. Methinks a couple should have to take courses first and get certified or licensed. After all, we can't even legally drive a car or get married or own a gun without some kind of education and/or legal paperwork.

The welfare state and liberalism is what taught the families to be like that... after all their precious self esteem might be hurt... and heaven forbid someone discipline a kid or let them know that there actually are winners and losers in everything every day.

[excon]

You are 100% correct in identifying that as possibly the major cause .You did not see this type of decay the family unit in the 1950s . Back then the Blacks generally had a strong family unit that was also strongly reinforced by the neighborhood and the church. The rise of the welfare state contributed greatly to the demise of the black family as a stable institution.

Hello again, tom:

You COULD say that... Or you COULD say that around that same time, the government declared a war on drugs that impacted black families WAYYYY more than it did whites.. I can show you the numbers if you like..

So, if you were to look around the black community TODAY, you COULD conclude that welfare did it.. Or, if you wanted to dig down a little deeper, you'd realize that the drug war did it.

By the way, there are more white people on welfare than blacks.. How come their family unit didn't dissolve?

excon

[Wondergirl]

The welfare state and liberalism is what taught the families to be like that... after all their precious self esteem might be hurt... and heaven forbid someone discipline a kid or let them know that there actually are winners and losers in everything every day.

These extended family members of mine are die-hard conservative Republicans.

[tomder55]

Hello again, tom:

You COULD say that... Or you COULD say that around that same time, the government declared a war on drugs that impacted black families WAYYYY more than it did whites.. I can show you the numbers if you like..

So, if you were to look around the black community TODAY, you COULD conclude that welfare did it.. Or, if you wanted to dig down a little deeper, you'd realize that the drug war did it.

By the way, there are more white people on welfare than blacks.. How come their family unit didn't dissolve?

excon

In many ways the White families are under the same pressures . But you give misleading stats . Yes more whites receive welfare BUT as a percentage of the population there isn't any comparison.

[smoothy]

These extended family members of mine are die-hard conservative Republicans.

They can have have misguided beliefs just as well as Die Hard Liberal Democrats... we don't claim to be perfect.

Hello again, tom:

You COULD say that... Or you COULD say that around that same time, the government declared a war on drugs that impacted black families WAYYYY more than it did whites.. I can show you the numbers if you like..

So, if you were to look around the black community TODAY, you COULD conclude that welfare did it.. Or, if you wanted to dig down a little deeper, you'd realize that the drug war did it.

By the way, there are more white people on welfare than blacks.. How come their family unit didn't dissolve?

excon

I don't think you have been around many Welfare recipients then. Happens with the Whites as well as the Hispanics on Welfare too, probably even the Asians (but I didn't personally know any of those on welfare) Talk to anyone that lives near an Indian Reservation... its just as bad there if not worse than it is with Blacks.

[Wondergirl]

They can have have misguided beliefs just as well as Die Hard Liberal Democrats... we don't claim to be perfect.

In my extended family's case, it's the parenting. No consistency, no interest in giving consequences.

[talaniman]

Yes more whites receive welfare BUT as a percentage of the population there isn't any comparison.

That makes no sense. Got a link to back that up with.

The drug war is but one factor in the decline of families (blacks and minorities impacted the most). Throw in predatory lending, redlining, gentrification, along with a few recessions (Wall Street gets bailed out by taxpayers), and regular "market adjustments", privatising prisons, sending blue collar jobs to Mexico and overseas, and redirecting budgetary priorities (specifically a few off the budget WARS), imminent domain, and reclassification of real estate, all of which poor people (notice I didn't assign a race) have been blamed for by fearmongers and TRUE race baiters and haters (for their profit of course) makes for the hollowing out of the middle classes while the social safety nets have been weakened considerably.

I don't buy into blaming the people caught up in the crap, not the kids, or the parents, because survival with no resources is a beeyarch, and welfare without a hustle and flow is miserable. It's no wonder that people give up on the system and fall to the underground economy that's better than nothing. To be clear we are not talking great majorities of people, just the ones who make the news and are demagogued as being the whole problem, a lousy excuse to do nothing about poverty, crumbling schools, and neighborhoods, because they don't deserve help.

TRAPPED is the word I use for the poor people I have encountered. You would be surprised at the ones who escape, but they never include those stories in the narrative to vilify those with less.

[DoulaLC]

Hello Doula,

Attributing bad behavior to a race, or even SOME of that race, is racism. If it's NOT meant to denigrate a race, and if it's behavior EVERY race engages in, then why even mention it??

How about if I said SOME Jews have hooked noses and are cheap bastards?? Is it NOT antisemitic because I used the disclaimer, some???

excon

The bad behavior was attributed to the people who J heard. They could have been any race, but in this example they were black... which is the topic of the thread. No race has a monopoly on bad behavior and no one has made such a statement.

Your remark about Jews is not racist... some Jews do have hooked noses and are cheap. Just as some Swedes, some Indians, some _____ fill in the blank.

Racism comes into it when a person believes an entire race of people are inherently inferior.

[smoothy]

Tal... most of those poor people are there because they refuse to learn from their mistakes... or insist despite being told... to not live beyond ones means.

I grew up around poor people... I was poor myself... in fact I was poor for a fair number of years out of college... it was 7 years before I was even able to afford to have my own apartment... Most of them do that......I myself did it before I learned my lesson.

As far as "Predatory lenders" Interest rates and such are based on risk... most of them have poor credit for a number of reasons... mostly from what I have seen... prioritizing wants over obligations and needs... meaning paying their debts on time doesn't rank high on the MUST do list for many. Yeah... I knew a lot of those... also knew a few that did have good credit because they took obligations seriously.

People that don't pay on time pay higher rates... just like people who rack up tickets and accident pay higher insurance rates...

Of course... people could just refuse to insure or lend to high risk people... because the returns aren't worth the risk otherwise. Then people would bellyache about that...

[talaniman]

That dog don't hunt my friend, simply because you assume what your saying is true from YOUR experience. I respectfully submit that YOU and others only have a very small cursory view of poverty in America and because YOU escaped doesn't mean every one can. Most of the poor people on welfare I know, work two jobs have two kids, one old raggedy car between both working adults, or the single ones commute on public transportation an hour each way.

Most poor people I know work, but one unexpected expense like the car breaks down, the kids get sick, utilities spike up, sends them into a financial turmoil they may take a year to get out of. A layoff, reduced hours, screws them royally. Those payday loans screws them royally for much longer.

And my friend just between me and you, you have to be loony as a goon to think a multinational billion dollar company (Walmarts to name ONE), can make big bucks employing minimum wage workers, who still need food stamps, and rent and utility subsidies (from taxpayers) to make it ALMOST for a month. There are tens of millions working poor in America, mostly women and children who don't deserve your disdain, nor criticism, just because they aren't as smart, skilled, or LUCKY as you have been in your life.

You must be one of those CRINOS (Christian In Name Only) who doesn't get But For The Grace Of God Go I. For as hard as you work my friend, and I have no doubt you did, and still do, you should count your blessings that you have escaped the trap of poverty, and prospered. Hope they don't farm your job out to some foreign land and tell you to hit the bricks.

Can't you just be grateful for what YOU have, and not begrudge another for not being so fortunate?

[smoothy]

That dog don't hunt my friend, simply because you assume what your saying is true from YOUR experience. I respectfully submit that YOU and others only have a very small cursory view of poverty in America and because YOU escaped doesn't mean every one can. Most of the poor people on welfare I know, work two jobs have two kids, one old raggedy car between both working adults, or the single ones commute on public transportation an hour each way.

Most poor people I know work, but one unexpected expense like the car breaks down, the kids get sick, utilities spike up, sends them into a financial turmoil they may take a year to get out of. A layoff, reduced hours, screws them royally. Those payday loans screws them royally for much longer.

And my friend just between me and you, you have to be loony as a goon to think a multinational billion dollar company (Walmarts to name ONE), can make big bucks employing minimum wage workers, who still need food stamps, and rent and utility subsidies (from taxpayers) to make it ALMOST for a month. There are tens of millions working poor in America, mostly women and children who don't deserve your disdain, nor criticism, just because they aren't as smart, skilled, or LUCKY as you have been in your life.

You must be one of those CRINOS (Christian In Name Only) who doesn't get But For The Grace Of God Go I. For as hard as you work my friend, and I have no doubt you did, and still do, you should count your blessings that you have escaped the trap of poverty, and prospered. Hope they don't farm your job out to some foreign land and tell you to hit the bricks.

Can't you just be grateful for what YOU have, and not begrudge another for not being so fortunate?

I'm a realist... who grew up in the poorest part of the state I was raised in (which was not a wealthy state). I also probably know more poor people than you do... ever hear of Appalachia? Know the people and the culture there? I do... I grew up around it. Maybe not in the heart of it... but out on the edges it was still there and very real.

Also... are you insinuating Poor people are inherently stupid? Because it appears that is exactly what you are doing... though some of them certainly are.

The last thing anyone should do when they have a drop in income... and that's borrow more money, or keep spending stuff on things you can live without... they should not have been living high on the hog (for their income) before that happened... most of the so called "Poor" people have extravagant expenses for their income level... one of them are cell phones , not just the parents but the kids too. My wife and I don't even have smartphones with data plans,. Bet they have a X box or Playstation too...

If I was so LUCKY... I wouldn't have been almost 30 before I could have my own place... and 40 before I didn't have to carefully budget paychecks... and would have had to carry 100% of the cost of my college education because a poor white person during Jimmy Carters term, couldn't get squat for assistance... unless they were valedictorians. I worked hard for everything I have....I paid for it with a lot of sacrifice and hard work.....none of it was handed to me.

[paraclete]

smoothy you speak of working hard but opportinity is what you had and you prospered over time. I know what is is to be poor and to struggle financially for years, some of it is bad decision making, particularly when young and some of it is just inadequate income and having the haves begrudge what you do get. How many people today are poor because of lack of opportunity. A humanistic society would say these people don't have a right to exist because the state must support them in some way, and those who have opportunity and pay tax begrudge those who don't, instead of making opportunity.

Yes some poor people spend their time in worthless pursuits, but who provides these diversions?

[smoothy]

smoothy you speak of working hard but opportinity is what you had and you prospered over time. I know what is is to be poor and to struggle financially for years, some of it is bad decision making, particularly when young and some of it is just inadequate income and having the haves begrudge what you do get. How many people today are poor because of lack of opportunity. A humanistic society would say these people don't have a right to exist because the state must support them in some way, and those who have opportunity and pay tax begrudge those who don't, instead of making opportunity.

Yes some poor people spend their time in worthless pursuits, but who provides these diversions?

The diversions are there for those who can afford them... of course... good judgement plays a factor. Same with Casinos... some people just shouldn't be within 10 miles of one... but you can't bar entire classes of people from them based on economic status.

As far as opportunity... I grew up in a HORRIBLE place for opportunity... its better now... but still bad by the standards I am comfortable with. Thus I don't live in that area... I had to move away from it to find work after I finished college. and that was 34 years ago.

Have I made some bad choices in my adult life... damn right I have... a few whoppers. One had me penniless and almost homeless overseas for almost an entire year (so obviously Unemployment insurance was not an option and lacking actual citizenship there at the time precluded me from many of the social safety nets they had).

[paraclete]

You and I might have similar backgrounds, I grew up in the coalfields of New South Wales and worked in the steel industry in my youth. We were poor, lived in public housing but fortunately my father had a job so eventually I was able to move away. In those days opportunity was everywhere, I'm talking 50-60 years ago. I would not have the education I do if I hadn't done it for myself and that led to opportunities. And yes I remember six months in Scotland well, working in a bar for low wages and drinks, not being a citizen sucks.

So all this should allow us the emphaise with the poor but in reality it doesn't. We know what lessons must be learned and applied, something that eludes many today