[paraclete]

Is that your criteria for not doing it? What sort of namby pamby response is that, we might offend someone. I doubt that that cop thought the other day, I can't write this black bird up, it might offend someone. what has been done to Greece is equivalent to what was done to that woman. Fact is maybe Germany should be offended, they could afford to restructure the debt and reduce the interest rate, it would be in their own interest to see Greece recover, They don't need to crush a small state even if the government has been irresponsible. They were helped when their economy was in a shambles after WWII and we have conveniently forgotten whose fault that was. I wonder how many German made cars are running around Greece, German made appliances in their homes, equipment in the industries they have left

Zeig Heil Frau Merkle l^^

[smoothy]

Clete.. the problem is this isn't the first time Greece showed up hands out demanding money on their terms... with no expectation of having to pay it back. It isn't even the second. They never made any real changes and they come back again... DEMANDING money and getting indignant when terms are being put on it by the lenders. (Which happens EVERYPLACE in the world with every lender)

Why should Germany capitulate... and besides... its not JUST Germany coughing up this money... every other EU nation has to as well. Many of them really can't afford it as it is. I think Italy has to cough up 56 Billion Euros this time around and they aren't in much better shape.

If Greece doesn't like the terms... they can take their business to another lender. ITs not THEIR money..they aren't ENTITLED to it like they feel they are entitled to everything else.

[catonsville]

Clete.. the problem is this isn't the first time Greece showed up hands out demanding money on their terms... with no expectation of having to pay it back. It isn't even the second. They never made any real changes and they come back again... DEMANDING money and getting indignant when terms are being put on it by the lenders. (Which happens EVERYPLACE in the world with every lender)

Why should Germany capitulate... and besides... its not JUST Germany coughing up this money... every other EU nation has to as well. Many of them really can't afford it as it is. I think Italy has to cough up 56 Billion Euros this time around and they aren't in much better shape.

If Greece doesn't like the terms... they can take their business to another lender. ITs not THEIR money..they aren't ENTITLED to it like they feel they are entitled to everything else.

Opps Smoothy, I thought for a minute you were describing some of the things that are going on in the US.

[tomder55]

Originally Posted by smoothy Clete.. the problem is this isn't the first time Greece showed up hands out demanding money on their terms... with no expectation of having to pay it back. It isn't even the second. They never made any real changes and they come back again... DEMANDING money and getting indignant when terms are being put on it by the lenders. (Which happens EVERYPLACE in the world with every lender) Why should Germany capitulate... and besides... its not JUST Germany coughing up this money... every other EU nation has to as well. Many of them really can't afford it as it is. I think Italy has to cough up 56 Billion Euros this time around and they aren't in much better shape. If Greece doesn't like the terms... they can take their business to another lender. ITs not THEIR money..they aren't ENTITLED to it like they feel they are entitled to everything else. Opps Smoothy, I thought for a minute you were describing some of the things that are going on in the US. coming soon . By that time the IMF will be unable to fund a US bailout so we will need to go begging to the New Development Bank(NDB), formerly the BRICS bank .

[paraclete]

Probably is however yes smoothy I know the greeks have proven to be unreliable and change is necessary, notice I didn't suggest the other measures be relaxed but that Germany consider changing the structure of the debt. What is the point of loaning someone money with obvious cash flow problems and then saying but you have to give this much back next month. Time must be allowed for certain measures to take effect and yield cash flow, and what is the point of removing any excess from the greek economy. These are begger my neighbour policies. Italy has a better chance of finding it than Greece has, they too may need their debt restructured

Are you sure you would want the other lenders investing in Europe

[smoothy]

Probably is however yes smoothy I know the greeks have proven to be unreliable and change is necessary, notice I didn't suggest the other measures be relaxed but that Germany consider changing the structure of the debt. What is the point of loaning someone money with obvious cash flow problems and then saying but you have to give this much back next month. Time must be allowed for certain measures to take effect and yield cash flow, and what is the point of removing any excess from the greek economy. These are begger my neighbour policies. Italy has a better chance of finding it than Greece has, they too may need their debt restructured

Are you sure you would want the other lenders investing in Europe

I doubt the Chinese would want to throw good money after bad...

Much of what Greece was bellyaching about... nobody else gets away with. Mostly WAY over generous freebies they never really could afford. Nor exist in the rest of the world.

Retiring at 55 with full pension... and when your die... your kids continue to collect your pension. etc... etc... etc. Stuff like that is what a lot of the complaining about on their part... they refused to accept common sense solutions. They want handouts and continuation of the status quo... that got them in the mess in the first place.

Germany isn't trying to punish them... just force them to do what needs to be done.

[paraclete]

Smoothy firstly China has other interests and long term at that, so investing in Greece gives them a foothold in a large economy, they have a different view, it could be said they walk a different path and acertain amount of economic influence they want to exploit.

Yes the benefits in Greece are ridiculous and reguire change to reflect the larger economy they are part of, this is not denyied by those outside of Greece, but sometimes these changes required generational, not radical change. Germany demands instant change although given Greek delay it is not instant and they have no tolerance for what is politically possible so they have instituted a political coup de tait. The fact is it is all relevant, I remember well americans telling me I was overpaid by american standards when in fact I was underpaid by Australian standards because they had no idea of local conditions. I don't doubt such things are happening to greeks. All right some conditions are generous by international standards and maybe they cannot afford continuation of such conditions so change takes place over time so the next generation looses out, but structural adjustment takes time.

Today Greece has a difficult road with no future goal and this is the problem

[tomder55]

The Chinese are interested in an air field in the Azures . Portugal owns the islands and is looking for some quick cash. For the Chinese ,it would be the perfect place to park long range bombers capable of threatening the East Coast of the US . Now what interest they would have in Greece is beyond me. But I'm sure it's nefarious .

Yes the benefits in Greece are ridiculous and reguire change to reflect the larger economy they are part of, this is not denyied by those outside of Greece, but sometimes these changes required generational, not radical change. Germany demands instant change although given Greek delay it is not instant and they have no tolerance for what is politically possible so they have instituted a political coup de tait. The fact is it is all relevant, I remember well americans telling me I was overpaid by american standards when in fact I was underpaid by Australian standards because they had no idea of local conditions. I don't doubt such things are happening to greeks. All right some conditions are generous by international standards and maybe they cannot afford continuation of such conditions so change takes place over time so the next generation looses out, but structural adjustment takes time.

Today Greece has a difficult road with no future goal and this is the problem

Their fiscal irresponsibility has left them no time to make generational changes . Unfortunately the US is not learning that lesson. Hopefully the electorate will realize the destructive path the "progressives " are leading us down.

[paraclete]

Stop worrying about aggression against the US, the internal problems outweigh the external but Greece may be helped by someone with greater vision. Their needs are small by comparisgon and your needs so great no one can committ to them. The reality is you are already bankrupt and lack vision