[tomder55]

Actually it's the "p5 +1 " .....;and by the end of the week they will announce that they have reached a "framework" for an agreement with the 12ers . In layman's terms that means they will punt again.

Meanwhile the Iranian centrifuges continue to whirl .

Bottom line is that if the emperor thinks he can push this deal on us without the Senate's legitimate and constitutional 'advise and consent ' then it has NO chance of success . The emperor's hero Woodrow Wilson tried that route in 1918 and the result was the US rejecting the Versailles treaty and admission into the League of Nations. The emperor has long said it's his goal the precent an Iranian nuke . He should be honest with us that his REAL goal is detente with Iran.....and the development of an Iranian nuke will be an inconvenient concession towards that goal.


Meanwhile ,we continue our retreat in the Middle East and cede more and more of our influence to the apocalyptic murderous regime in Tehran.
When they start using their heavy weapons in Tikrit shortly ,I wonder if the world will condemn them like they do the Israelis when a Gaza residence gets damaged ?

[talaniman]

When does the mandatory draft start General Tom? If you mean the influence of military might who pays for all that stuff?

Tax cuts for rich people, and wars all over the place didn't work to great last time, nor did the multiple deployment of limited parts of the population. So tell congress to declare a war, or define what they want, and put it on the presidents desk and not just holler would have, should have, could have!

You cannot intervene in every countries civil war and expect a good outcome. You can't change a regime and put one in that you like.

Retreat and regroup isn't a losing strategy, when you consider the alternatives and changes in the landscape.

[tomder55]

Mandatory draft is a progressive's idea. I've heard that for the last decade from the likes of Charlie Rangel and others . People like that look at the military as a jobs program ,and an instrument of the nanny-state .

Yes our military could use more professionals; But not as many as you think. The contingent that was planned to remain in Iraq in the SOFA would've been enough to stop the rise of the Islamic State ,and to check Iranian influence in the country until they were able to secure the country themselves.

Before the emperor abandoned our commitment there were intercepted letters from the 'Islamic State of Iraq' (the precursor to the Islamic State ) telling the AQ leadership that their war in Iraq was lost so don't send any more jihadists to the fight there .
Letters from al Qaeda leaders show Iraqi effort is in disarray | The Long War Journal

Not only that ...intercepted communications showed that AQ was just as resigned to defeat in Afghanistan as they were in Iraq .

The letter appeared to be from Osama bin Laden's deputy Ayman al-Zawahiri to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, said Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman.
He did not show the letter or say how or where it was obtained, but said it was considered authentic and recent.
The missive warned that the network faced crises in many areas, he said."Zawahiri says that they've lost many of their key leaders and that they've virtually resigned themselves to defeat in Afghanistan, that their lines of communication and funding have been severely disrupted," Mr Whitman told reporters on Thursday.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | US 'intercepts al-Qaeda letter'

So yeah ;we are losing our influence because of a fundamentally flawed foreign policy by the emperor who embraces our enemies while he alienates our friends.

[talaniman]

How about the middle east getting their own political act together, and we don't have to lose our youngsters over in the desert fighting guerilla warfare. Sorry Tom, I just ain't buying your temporary quick fix that's wastes time, money, and blood, while rich sheiks and blue blood entitled arabs sit on their fat arses and count money. And for sure I don't care what AQ or Shell Oil says about it.

How you can ignore shuffling youngsters in and out of a combat zone multiple times for 10 years, for a pat on the back is beyond me, and protecting Romney's, and Trumps grand kids from serving their country is par for the course for Republican excuses to jump from one war to another paid for on the backs of poor and middle class taxpayers.

You want a war, then raise an army, and pay for it fairly. You don't have to be a progressive to see the utter absurdity of rich guy tax cuts and a bunch of wars.

[tomder55]

How you can ignore the implications of us sitting it out is beyond me. We've tried watching the world's chaos from an ocean away in the past ,and we found that we eventually get dragged into the world affairs anyway. Your idea of a fortress America with it's draw bridge drawn up was a quaint idea a century ago .

[paraclete]

fortress America with it's draw bridge drawn up

.


Fortress america with its drawers down is a closer analogy. You have become the military that fights its wars with an armchair and a joystick and you just saw where not having a sufficient force on the ground to protect these assets gets you in Yemen. Yes, a large standing army is an employment program unless you have active participation in a war but drafting all that unemployed youth has real national advantages, it injects a discipline and purpose they can't get anywhereelse. What is happening is you are languishing for sense of purpose because you know that it will take a huge effort to take out a few determined terrorists in Iraq/Syria with no guarantee that in the end you are improving anything

[tomder55]

and you just saw where not having a sufficient force on the ground to protect these assets gets you in Yemen

what we saw in Yemen is the natural outcome when you elect a fool as the person directing your foreign policy .

[talaniman]

Well good luck guarding the whole arab world with a volunteer army, and a bunch of expensive private contractors.

[paraclete]

The arab world seems to demonstrate that given enough incentive it might be possible

[paraclete]

OK I'll say it because no one else has ISIS got their backsides kicked in Tikrit but it isn't big news, just a side show, because the great powers really had little part in it, they flew a few sorties when asked but otherwise stayed out of it. The real battle is yet to come as they approach Mosul, meanwhile ISIS is attacking targets of opportunity in Damascus, could their plan be a quick thrust to take Syria and retreat?

[tomder55]

because the great powers really had little part in it, they flew a few sorties when asked but otherwise stayed out of it.

I'd say the air campaign was pivotal . I understand why we did it . Iran was sending in heavy artillery to level Tikrit . The process would've been messier and prolonged . The air campaign eliminated the need.
Now the ethnic cleansing of Tikrit can commence.

It must make our pilots real proud that they are supporting a group that was responsible for a large portion of the casualties we had in Iraq . It clearly demonstrates that the emperor has fully aligned the US with the Persian empire .

[paraclete]

I hear your naval air force claims it has won back 25% of Iraq. With no boots on the ground how did they do it? another mission accomplished? Yes your air support was pivitol, the ground attack was faltering, militia can only do so much. What you need to understand is there are enemies and enemies and ISIS is the greater enemy and just maybe standing together for a little while might change attitudes. It didn't work well after WWII but maybe this time, when you don't have an army at the gates...

I think you need to understand that times have changed and there are others who have risen to the challenge because it is their turf that is ultimately threatened. The negotiations have gone well with Iran, they have what they want, Obama has what he wants and only Israel is unhappy and if Israel is unhappy the GOP is unhappy. What does it feel like to be Netinyahyu's bltch

[tomder55]

The negotiations have gone well with Iran, they have what they want

yes they do ;the Iranian nuke ,and complete capitulation by the west .

Obama has what he wants

I'd say he's Chamberlain ,but that would be unkind to Chamberlain. Chamberlain was wrong ;but he was also a British patriot who in the end supported Churchill's efforts during the war . The emperor is more like Philippe Petain of Vichi France and Vidkun Quisling of Norway .

and only Israel is unhappy and if Israel is unhappy the GOP is unhappy. What does it feel like to be Netinyahyu's bltch

That raises an interesting question. What does the emperor gain from this ? I think his real motivation is to take down the state of Israel . He's banking on the bet that if there is a 'framework' for an agreement with the apocalyptic 12ers in Tehran and the P5+1 then it is less likely that Israel will strike against the nuclear infrastructure that they just rubber stamped .
But the threat to Israel is not diminished . In fact this agreement makes it more perilous making it MORE likely that Israel will act .
So either the emperor and his Forest Gump Sec State are complete buffoons ,or they have sinister motivations regarding Israel.

I used to think that he was just anxious to have any foreign policy legacy . But that can't be it . The world is littered with his foreign policy failures. Yes ,I get his basic premise that the US was over -extended . His prescription ,to just abandon the role the US has assumed since the end of WWII ,has been to leave a chaotic void where we exit . The world laughs at his red lines . Wherever he's drawn them ,the lines have been crossed (including the deadline for a framework). The Sunni world sees the deal as US weakness and the Shia world as affirmation of their ascendency. What he has done is signal to the world the US no longer has the will to be the hegemon.

You say that it's only Republican opposition to this . I assure you the opposition to this Lausanne framework is the most bipartisan politics has been here in 25 years. But that doesn't deter the emperor . He tells the Senate to abandon it's constitutional role in the passing of treaties.....and he has gone after Dem Senators like Menendez who opposed him,slapping him with a criminal indictment for things he overlooked from other Dems in the rank and file .

[paraclete]

Are you suggesting Omama is having a cleanout in the ranks? I think you read too much into this, this opposition of Iran has been around a long time and opposition to their nuclear program is fueled by Israel. They should be much more concerned about developments closer to home. If Syria falls there will be an arab army willing to take them on. In case you haven't noticed we have a chaotic void now. This is what happens when you rely on rhetoric instead of action. The agreement with Iran only came as a result of the intervention of others, left to the US there is only stalemate, but Iran is mature enough to help out in Iraq while the US dithers

[tomder55]

Are you suggesting Omama is having a cleanout in the ranks?

Yes ;he is purging Menendez with a Justice Dept indictment . Menendez is the leading Democrat opposition to both the emperor's Iran policies ,and Cuba. He also was until yesterday the ranking Dem on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee ;the Committee that would 1st review any "treaty " .

Now I understand that Menendez is a snake in the grass and probably as guilty as hell. But it is curious that his Justice Dept has evidence that Harry Reid is a worse criminal ...and he has gotten a pass for years . In fact ;Reid should be charged for the same case that Menendez is being charged for .

The case involves special favors from Menendez to ophthalmologist Salomon Melgen for campaign contributions to Menendez campaign . But Melgan did not make the donations to Menendez's campaign . He made them to an entity called “Majority PAC.”.....a political pac controlled by Harry Reid .

Meglan is charged with overbilling Medicare injections of Lucentis to his patients .So he went to Menendez asking for his help. He in turn went to Reid .Reid personally interceded to arrange a meeting for Menendez with HHS's then-Secretary Kathleen Sebelius. The indictment (at p. 49) explains that the meeting took place on August 2, 2012, and that Sebelius rebuffed Menendez.
So in fact Meglan's campaign contributions bought access from both Menendez and Reid . But only one of them is charged. Oh btw ,just days before the meeting with Sibelius ,a meeting that both Reid and Menendez attended ,Meglan forked over an additional $100,000 to Majority Pac. That money did not go to the Menendez campaign .

This is what the emperor calls prosecutorial discretion . He charges his political opponents and gives a pass to his allies (also see the Justice Dept's decision to not charge Lois Lerner ).

I think you read too much into this, this opposition of Iran has been around a long time and opposition to their nuclear program is fueled by Israel. They should be much more concerned about developments closer to home. If Syria falls there will be an arab army willing to take them on.

Israel can handle any opponent ,or alliance of opponents in the region that does not have nukes.
But let's talk about the Iranian lies about their program . They claim they need it for energy production. That's a lie . You know it and I know it . They are a net energy exporter when they aren't under sanctions for being a terrorist state and a state violating proliferations treaties.
But why would the emperor buy into their lie ? He opposes the construction of nuclear plants in the US and was in his community action days a no -nuke advocate. As a student he wrote papers on the subject ,and earlier in his Presidency ,he advocated a no -nuke world.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/wo...anted=all&_r=0

So why the sudden turnaround ,making policy that guarantees a proliferation of nukes in the most volatile region on the planet ? Answer ..... his hatred for Israel supersedes his lifetime goal of a nuke free world .

[paraclete]

his hatred for Israel supersedes his lifetime goal of a nuke free world .

Where is your evidence for this?

There is a difference in settling for what you can get and continuing on a path that will definitely lead to war. Obama wants to end nuclear weapons, an admirable goal, we can put it up there with limiting climate change. We know it isn't the best of all possible solutions but the world may have to settle for nuclear energy if it is to achieve other goals

I think your hatred of Obama supercedes reason

[tomder55]

Proof of what ? That the emperor hates Israel ? It's undeniable that he has been the U.S. president least friendly toward Israel since its founding. Even Jimmy Carter ,who calls them an apartheid state was friendlier .

The emperor consistently misrepresents the level of Israel expansion in the West Bank ;and he knows it 's a lie. Instead of expanding settlements during the emperor's reign ,the Israelis abandoned all settlements in Gaza ,and the level of building in the West Bank has all but disappeared . So when there is some construction in Jerusalem in Jewish designated areas .the emperor condemns the building as an expansion.
The emperor condemned Israel in very strong terms when Hamas was bombing Israel from Gaza . He found any civilian death in the Israeli response "inexcusable " .

In his Cairo speech he compared the Palestinians to African American slaves pre-Civil War ;by extension making the Israelis the 'slave masters ' . He undermined Egypt -Israeli cooperation that led to the cease fire in Gaza . He has adopted the false narrative that Jews don't have a historic claim to the land.

He has threatened to sanction Israel in the UN ,and has threatened to support a UN initiative to impose a 2 state solution. He refuses to recognize Jerusalem as the legitimate Capitol of Israel ,and refuses to acknowledge any legitimacy to Israel's claim to any part of the city .
He has consistently insulted Bibi ..be it making him wait in the White House basement while the emperor ate his dinner ; mocking him on open mike to the French leader . He sent a political team to Israel to interfere in their elections opposing Bibi .

What more proof do you need ? He has completely undermined any chance Israel has to preemptively deal with the Iranian nuke program when they are the nation most under threat by the program.

[paraclete]

Hey you base your assumptions on someone who doesn't want Israel to expand, this in your mind represents hatred. The Palestinians hands on not clean but then nor are the Israelis. Israel has been an occupying power for longer than most of us can remember so pointing out that their actions need to change is not hatred, it is just the US interfering in the affairs of an other nation, which is a pastime for Washington. Ok Obama doesn't share the white man's burden for Israel, I get it, they are a recalcicant lot. I don't like the two state solution but without a Palestinian state in palestine this conflict will go on for ever so imposing it might be the only way it happens. I think the West Bank demonstrates that a Palestininan state is possible without conflict. What to do with Gaza ? Ah well, any advance on creating a new Singapore? I don't see Gaza realistically as part of a palestinian state

As far as Israel dealing preemptively with the Iranians, are you mad too? There has been enough gunboat diplomacy in the middle east . The Iranians have a right to develop, the idea that bans can be imposed on anyone is an assumption of one world government and if you said Obama wanted to impose that I might believe you

[tomder55]

if you want to impose a 2 state solution then you are no different than those you criticize. However ,don't blame Israel for no end. When they get a Palestinian leader who is a reliable partner in the negotiations then perhaps they can come to a conclusion. But the Palestinian leaders ,be they Fatah or Hamas have never budged from their basic position that Israel has no right to exist . I believe that is the emperor's basic position too. He has NEVER asked for any give from the Palestinians ,but has spent the last 7 years putting constant pressure on Israel to make concessions. The emperor's starting point in fact is pre-1967 borders which is the height of unrealistic absurdity .
You say the Palestinian hands are not clean ? Thanks for the understatement of the year . They are the sole reason that no progress has been made . I'll tell you something else . If your towns were subject to constant indiscriminate terror rocket attacks you would be singing a different tune as to what the appropriate action should be .

And no I'm not mad in saying the Israelis should've taken out the nuke sites in Iran a long time ago . They bombed the Iraqi nuke program that you say didn't exist . They took out a N Korean designed nuke site in Syria too that no one knew existed . I'll say it again. Iranian nukes are an existential threat to the security of Israel. The US was willing to risk world nuclear war over Russian nukes in Cuba for the same reason . Thankfully when push came to shove we were dealing with rational actors . Don't count on it there .

[paraclete]

Tom Isreal like to conveniently forget that there is a level of frustration among the Palestinians that will never be resolved until they see themselves as free. Yes there are arabs who don't concede a right to exist, but ask yourself, isn't that attitude entenched in Israel too? Do they see a right for a palestinian state to exist. You know as well as I do this all comes down to ideas of preexistant right, of who occupied the land first. Don't think I don't understand this a little, we have a population here who thinks that they have a preexistant right, a little different situation, but nevertheless such attitudes ultimately lead to violence.

If you could remove the link between a piece of land and a political system. It might be possible for the two peoples to exist side by side but the muslim will never agree to equality with anyone else and this is at the heart of the problem, however like it or not the palestinian must be given equal rights.

And no I'm not mad in saying the Israelis should've taken out the nuke sites in Iran a long time ago . They bombed the Iraqi nuke program that you say didn't exist .

Do you have a little problem with time and comprehension? I never said that there had not been WMD in Iraq, just that at the time Bush invaded there is no evidence that there were actually WMD in Iraq. Now where they were and why Saddam didn't use them if he had them, an entirely different question and not satisfactorily answered as far a I am concerned because if you know they exist you should be interested in destroying them particularly with the rise of ISIS. Bush invaded Iraq using the excuse that the question remained unanswered and alleged he was making a preemptive strike and what I see is this thinking is all too prevelent both in the US and in Israel. I also think Obama is not a subscriber to such thinking.

Cuba was an entirely different issue to Iran, stop using strawman arguments. Iran does not have the capability to point nuclear missiles at Israel. If That capability existed we would expect that Israel might attack them. You also have to put Cuba in context. The US had attacked them (Bay of Pigs), Iran has not attacked Israel. Now if Iran parked missiles in Damascus or Aram.. but in fact Iran has parked non-nuclear missiles in Gaza and Lebanon and Israel has allowed the situation to escalate until it became intolerable without a preemptive strike. Mixed messages