[talaniman]

No doubt your side will point out that the dems had blame in torturing prisoners too. So what? It's out there so we can holler about it, rather than have it buried.

You like to holler, ME TOO!

[tomder55]

No doubt your side will point out that the dems had blame in torturing prisoners too

Well that's a given. Reditions were going on during the Clintoon regime .The difference is that we did not sqawk about it because it was the right thing to do. Your sanctimonious Feinstein doesn't fool me . She turned a blind eye when those reditioned under the Clintoons were turned over to countries where real torture took place.

[talaniman]

That does make Americans self righteous hypocrites doesn't it?

[tomder55]

war is hell . The only moral way to fight one is the use overwhelming force to crush the enemy as quickly as possible .

[paraclete]

So Tom rendition is the right thing to do? Sounds like an end justifies the means argument to me and that is right wing, nazi, objective in what way are you different you would eliminate whole populations with you bomb them and be damned thinking

[tomder55]

Proportionality prolongs war and that is what is immoral.

[paraclete]

Yes we saw that in 1945 Tom I understand the idea that populations who harbour terrorists are equally guilty just as the Germans and the Japanese www guilty by association however you don't need to remove people unless you are going to do something illegal. Bombing civilian populations however simple a solution doesn't bring victory without annihilation your nation was once fair nation but is becoming that which you hate

[tomder55]

During the height of the cold war we were willing to accept the launch of thousands of ICBM and accept casualties in the millions on both sides within hours of a war beginning . We have used drones with targeted missile strikes that cause collateral damage ,and have employed assassination squads . So spare me the outrage over some of the interrogation techniques . What Feinstein did was a cheap sucker punch to our intelligence agencies. My biggest concern is the fallout . She of course will not take any personal responsibility for that .

[paraclete]

And neither she should, exposing lies in in government is public service, exposing regime excesses is public service. The end never justifies the means. If you and the soviets had wiped each other out we would have all perished and for what? So you could say you were right? It is a great pity you have never met the people you would bury so easily. I recall a line from a movie that went a little like this when Rome falls there will be shout of freedom and the same applies to the US and for exactly the same reason, your integres and your reckless endangerment of others

Whatever you might think the bomb was a bad thing. Now ISIS is also a bad thing but would you unleash the bomb on Syria to save few Syrian lives? On Irak? On Afghanistan?

[Athos]

When the United States, long a beacon for the oppressed and the marginal and those seeking freedom, takes a page from the Gestapo playbook, I no longer know what country I am living in.

There is a giant tear rolling down the cheek of the Statue of Liberty.

[paraclete]

Thank you athos I think we all share that thought, there are some who really do miss the point. I was thinking today about who can we trust in this world and I realised there are very few that you could trust with great power or great advancement, they are just not up to the responsibility

[tomder55]

Feinstein's Senate Intelligence Committee(SIC) report suffers the same deficiencies as Rolling Stone's reporter Sabrina Rubin Erdely's conclusions on campus rape at UVA . Neither bothered to talk to the accused. Both came to conclusions before they ever bothered to collect the facts. Then after coming to conclusions they cherry picked facts to support their predetermined conclusion.
In the case of the Intel committee ,they began their investigation presupposing that the CIA ,and the Bush Adm acted illegally . After 5 years and $40 million of taxpayer money spent on their investigation the SCI published their report with only Democrat members signing on to it's conclusions. Most of the work on the 'facts 'was compiled by Dem staffers and not trained investigators .CIA bosses and staffers did not refuse to provide testimony as so many members of the emperor's team have done. Instead ,they were never asked to testify .The most the committee had was CIA produced emails and documents lacking context .
The report also fails badly in that it makes no recommendations for change . No one makes the claim that methods and procedures were perfect . They were hastily formed immediately after the 9-11 attacks , the DC sniper case ,and the Antrax attacks. The immediate concern and message that our leaders heard from the American people was 'keep us safe'. Since there were no further attacks ,and many foiled plots we can make the conclusion that in that regard ;our intel agencies succeeded . So we know right off the bat that the SIC conclusion that the methods were ineffective is false.
What SIC also fails to mention is that not only did the Justice Dept give the approval ,but that ALL senior member of Congress were briefed . None objected .

On the contrary ;here is what Feinstein said in 2002 :
'I have no question in my mind that had it not been for 9/11 -- and I'd do anything if it hadn't happened -- that it would have been business as usual,'' said Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California. ''It took that real attack, I think, to kind of shiver our timbers enough to let us know that the threat is profound, that we have to do some things that historically we have not wanted to do to protect ourselves.''( New York Times, May 26, 2002)


Here is what a group of former CIA chiefs had to say about the report :

"The recently released Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Majority report on the CIA's Rendition, Detention, and Interrogation Program is marred by errors of facts and interpretation and is completely at odds with the reality that the leaders and officers of the Central Intelligence Agency lived through. It represents the single worst example of Congressional oversight in our many years of government service."

[paraclete]

Tom you know and so do I that 9/11 was an excuse to strengthen the hand of the security forces. The threat was actually very small a few isolated incidents but in the mind of the public, horrific. The terrorists succeeded, they brought terror to their enemy. Even now the ISIS threat is not large but the ineffectiveness of security forces in various places makes the problem look huge and it will be a excuse for creative intelligence gathering, It is simple; just increase the supply of a few implements and look away and give your government plausiable denyability

[paraclete]

Lindt Chocolat Cafe hostage drama in Martin Place, Sydney

I cannot imagine the significance of Islamic militants taking over a chocolate shop far from Syria, do they want to establish the Cacao Caliphate? Perhaps the owners are Jewish but even so this can have no effect on anything but the high potential of getting yourself shot. If you wanted to make a public display of the cause, Martin Place, though a significant central city plaza is hardly full of Christmas shoppers, it is the heart of the finance sector and offers the security services plenty of room to deploy and keep the public away. Even the nearby urban transit station offers a train ride to nowhere

[tomder55]

The threat was actually very small a few isolated incidents

hindsight is 20-20 .

Attachment 46920

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6yLQRF-cEU

[paraclete]

You lost me there Tom. Yes hindsight is 20-20 and it seems your intelligence services are still not up to speed, this incident this morning is very close to the US embassy, perhaps it's a message, we have your latte' captive

[talaniman]

WakeWake up Clete, stop acting like it's about US! Its about you too, and many more besides just you Aussies! Think global, and collaborate intelligence as this is a shared problem. Obviously your intelligence agencies have failed you too!

You should have seen this stunt coming!

[paraclete]

Hi Tal we did see it coming and raised the terror alert months ago but this was a lone wolf action, a somewhat deranged individual. The only way we could have prevented this is not to allow political asylum and muslim immigration. You might consider that this happened outside the US embassy and you didn't see it coming

In you country this fellow would have been languishing in prison under your three strikes rule, maybe we should think about locking people up for life too, that might have prevented this

Sydney siege: Man behind Martin Place stand-off was Iranian Man Haron Monis, who had violent criminal history - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Whatever you might think Tal the actions of the US and its allies in the middle east are a trigger for much violence and the rise of organisations like al qaeda and ISIS. It is time you took responsibility. Who knows, maybe the release of the terror report was enough for this person to think he was going to be treated the same way

[tomder55]

blame America 1st . Some things never change .

[paraclete]

He was raving about america and other things on his blog and Facebook as was his partner who admitted being a terrorist so he blamed america. Once again you want to shoot the messenger rather than accepting the message. While we are talking about america, some american nut case wanted to tell us our tight gun laws caused this rather than recognising that because of them, this nutcase couldn't get hold of an assault weapon and also please contrast the community reaction, no marches protesting the slaying of the perpetrator, no destruction of property and the rule of law pervailed even though a member of a minority was shot by police. What came out of it was solidarity not division, so tell me Tom who's democracy works?