[talaniman]

Some have murderous ways Tom, but some do NOT. How would you like to be defined by the murderous ways of your own kindred? (Or your beloved slave holding founders, who wrote ALL men are created equal, yet did NOT extend that equality to ALL men?) Man has a savage past from which he has yet to properly evolve from.

[tomder55]

How would you like to be defined by the murderous ways of your own kindred?

I judge them by their actions today . The savage past you speak of is on display by the ISLAMIC State .

[talaniman]

And we should ignore the savage PRESENT of our own experience with school shootings, and criminals who have abandoned the hoods for local elections?

Or the transgressions of those elected officials who see the light and get another chance to show their family values? You don't have to travel half a world away to find murderous bad behavior.

[tomder55]

I'm glad we did not have people with your mentality leading us during WWII .It is regrettable that we have so many of your mindset leading us today. You think we are no better than the jihadists ? I disagree .

[talaniman]

My point was that they (and YOU) use the term Islamic, but it's a bald face LIE. The examples I gave to you and Clete, about broad brushing entire populations by the actions of a few make that point.

It is regrettable you or Clete cannot discern between loony criminals who hate, AND kill, and the people who ARE killed. ISIL has killed more Muslims than they have of any other peoples.

[tomder55]

ISIL has killed more Muslims than they have of any other peoples.

thus my kindred of Cain comment . The Islamic State would not have been able to achieve the level of success they have had without some very powerful backing in the Muslim ranks. I can hear you in 1941 ... not all the Germans are Nazis.

[talaniman]

I couldn't agree more with you as the rise of ISIS didn't just happen in a vacuum, or whim. It had a purposeful influx of support from some rich, wealthy, powerful people. They made a monster that is out of control.

All Germans weren't bad or Nazis, as many were deceived, and many more fled. Many died.

Hitler was a monster that was out of control too!

[tomder55]

still we had to defeat the whole nation. Same thing with Japan. They were not all part of the Imperial cult . We had to defeat and discredit Shinto.

[talaniman]

Defeating ISIS by defeating Islam? Is that your logic?

We had to defeat and discredit Shinto.

Naw, we destroyed a few islands with an A Bomb. Would have worked on Hitler too!

[tomder55]

really ? and how many Japanese today worship the emperor ?(and no ;I'm not talking about emperor Zero)

[paraclete]

Well I see you have finally come around to the solution as you said it worked on the japanese and would have worked on Hitler and it kept the soviets at bay, now which target should we select Racca perhaps? The problem is ISIS is dispersed even if they have the backing of sunni people, Bomb them to show your resolve and they will fade away, the only thing they understand is fear

[talaniman]

Why doesn't Australia bomb them?

[paraclete]

We are bombing them in Iraq as part of the effort to contain them and push them back but we are not nuclear armed so we can't deliver a decisive airstrike. Like yourselves we have sent advisors to Iraq. We see this threat for what it is Tal both in Iraq/Syria and in the homeland. We have a muslim population and a number of people have gone from here to fight what is disturbing is some of those are from families who have been here a long time. There are parts of the Muslim community who have been a source of problem here for a long time, not only the source of terrorist activity but also organised crime. We are also bordered by one of the largest muslim countries and they are showing an increasing militance with a large military buildup.

As I see it you possess the capability to deliver the same decisive airpower you delivered in Japan, Europe, Iraq, Afghanistan but you appear hamstrung by an inability to separate military necessity from civilian issues. Korbani is a case in point, the population has fled, anyone who remains has questionable loyalties, same with Racca, why haven't you used a far more effective air campaign, even the Kurds cheer when you bomb ISIS in the town

[tomder55]

fair question . Most of Caen's historical district was destroyed by Allied bombs during the Normandy campaign. 1150 civilians were killed even after the vast majority had evacuated .

[paraclete]

And you don't want to repeat it, strategy is a strange thing, Anaheim was leveled in the interests of taking a bridge, why so concerned about a civilian population? Remember Dresden. Sudden attack of conscience? Or is it that economically you want this to be a protacted war? Maybe it is that we haven't come to grips with ISIS being worse than the NAZI but give us time we will come to the realisation. Maybe it is the fact that they are the enemy of the enemy of your friend?

[paraclete]

The fact is shia muslims can't hide from ISIS because the support for ISIS in the sunni muslim community is larger than we know

IS supporters shot man outside Greenacre mosque: Witness claims - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Denied the opportunity to join in the fracas in Syria, ISIS supporters are doing a little home grown terrorism and this is what we can expect anywhere that these people have the ascendency in the community. We thought we were isolated enough for this not to happen here, so did the shia immigrant community, but unless, and until, this evil is stamped out we can expect atrocities to occur and whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, it is in the name of religion, it is religious, exploiting an age old religious division

[tomder55]

agree . unfortunately here ,the political leaders call jihadist activity "domestic" or "workplace "violence. The emperor is in complete denial and thinks that the pin prick air strikes are "degrading " the Islamic State .

[paraclete]

Oh No Tom hundreds are being killed in this little war, read the press, but casualties won't stop ISIS, they will just take some more of the locals out and shoot them to make sure they have no enemies at their back. Air strikes are a blunt instrument, effective against certain targets but if you want to avoid civilian deaths you have to use different weapons too, get your hands dirty. You are supporting the Kurdish mini states now because it suits you to tweak Assards nose, but you do so at the risk of upsetting your turkish allies. It is hard to fight a war where there are three sides. Have you asked yourself why isn't ISIS fighting Assard with the same ferocity they fight the Kurds? ISIS is being used as an instrument by both Iraq and Syria to destroy enemies of the regime

[paraclete]

And I suggest the spread of radical ideas in many communities is only a matter of time

Sectarian tensions high, say Australian Muslim leaders - CNN.com

Let us not think that this is about freedom in any form, it is about an ideology that has at its centre age old conflicts about something that most of us would today consider something that is not worth fighting about. Muslims were not immune to their schisms and that we should still see that fight being carried on thirteen hundred years later is ridiculous, telling us that if nothing else, muslims are primitives.

on a slightly different but related note, this week we laid to rest Gough Whitlam and today the tensions we are talking about in Australia are a direct result of his policies for it was his government that encouraged migration from the middle east and other parts of asia. Like many in Australia I was over his policies in 1975 when he was oustered from government but the reforms lived on to haunt us today. Take a lesson radical reformers you don't know where your policies will lead

[paraclete]

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News...ir-strike.html

I expect we could put that report up there with the assassination of OBL and it is likely to have much more impact on the fight against terrorism but we can expect that as with OBL it will drive the leadership into hiding. You can try to cut the head off the snake and hope it works but this is a group who have had that head cut off more than once. Setbacks give the forces gathering to fight ISIS opportunity to organise and press any advantage it gives them, as the french say viva la victorie and with estimates of their numbers revised down that might be quicker than first expected