Check out some similar questions!

excon · Feb 21, 2014, 07:23 AM

Hello:

If I ran a doughnut shop in Arizona, and held a SINCERE religious belief that cops are IMMORAL, can I refuse to serve them?

excon

speechlesstx · Feb 21, 2014, 07:38 AM

Can the cop force you to violate your beliefs?

excon · Feb 21, 2014, 07:48 AM

Hello again, Steve:

Can the cop force you to violate your beliefs?

No more than selling a hamburger to a gay person can. But in Arizona the hamburger store owner WILL be able to refuse to serve them.

Should it pass, apparently you're saying that I CAN refuse to serve the cop. At least you're being consistent (for NOW, but that's gonna change, isn't it?).

excon

PS> Baseball?

talaniman · Feb 21, 2014, 08:09 AM

If your belief allows you to discriminate against other Americans, you shouldn't be in business, you should be in church doing business your religion allows. No church is above the law, and the "devil made me do it" is no excuse. Tax the church if you want to do BUSINESS.

>PS:Baseball. Can't wait!! <

speechlesstx · Feb 21, 2014, 08:14 AM

I'd sell them the donuts, but then I think if we were a civilized society there could be room for compromise. But it isn't about selling donuts, it's about sincere people being forced to PARTICIPATE in things that violate their conscience or express messages contrary to their faith.

Baking a gay couple a cake is no big deal to me, forcing me to create a cake that reflects their orientation might cross the line for some. Does only the gay couple's rights matter? How about I make the cake and you buy your topper? Or why would you even want to do business with me knowing my heart isn't in it? Find another cake and everyone can be happy.

speechlesstx · Feb 21, 2014, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

If your belief allows you to discriminate against other Americans, you shouldn't be in business, you should be in church doing business your religion allows. No church is above the law, and the "devil made me do it" is no excuse. Tax the church if you want to do BUSINESS.

>PS:Baseball. Can't wait!! <

We don't abandon our beliefs in the public square. I realize you lefties want to put Christians in the closet but sorry, the first amendment isn't void in my place of business and the church exists to worship and serve, not sell donuts.

P.S. Do y'all really think you stand a chance in baseball?

excon · Feb 21, 2014, 08:35 AM

Hello again, Steve:

Look. I sympathize with your religious beliefs... But, when you practice them OUTSIDE of the church, you open yourself up to the discussion about WHO'S beliefs are we gonna make superior over others.. You think YOUR beliefs should be supreme. But, according to our beloved 1st Amendment, MY beliefs are equal to yours, even if I just formed a church. The 1st Amendment says NOTHING about older religions versus newer ones.

Who are you to tell ME that MY religious beliefs CAN'T be centered around a HATRED for cops??

excon

speechlesstx · Feb 21, 2014, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

Look. I sympathize with your religious beliefs... But, when you practice them OUTSIDE of the church, you open yourself up to the discussion about WHO'S beliefs are we gonna make superior over others.. You think YOUR beliefs should be supreme.

But, according to our beloved 1st Amendment, MY beliefs are equal to yours, even if I just formed a church. The 1st Amendment says NOTHING about older religions versus newer ones.

Who are you to tell ME that MY religious beliefs CAN'T be centered around a HATRED for cops??

excon

I made no such argument, I'm not challenging your beliefs or their equality. I said it's about forcing me to violate those beliefs. Who trumps who there?

Wondergirl · Feb 21, 2014, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

We don't abandon our beliefs in the public square.

As a public librarian (with my own beliefs about things), I never asked anyone if he was alcoholic or gay or divorced or an immigrant or a different religion/political standing before I checked out books to him. All that mattered was that he had paid his property taxes and had a library card in good standing. As a counselor, I never have checked first and/or refused a client who was alcoholic or gay or divorced or an immigrant or a different religion/political standing either. If he couldn't pay what I asked, we bartered and worked it out.

Was I wrong? Should I have been pickier?

Wondergirl · Feb 21, 2014, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I said it's about forcing me to violate those beliefs.

Then why would you be in a business from which you would push away paying clients/customers?

talaniman · Feb 21, 2014, 08:50 AM

If I was a cop, I would sue you for discrimination Ex. That's also in the law. Don't want to provide me a service, we go to court. See how many donuts you make for profit or a livelihood after my lawyers serves you with court papers. I don't care what you believe. Not my business. Screwing me over in the name of your god is my business, and it isn't going to happen.

Sue the government of Arizona. Let them pay for their religious belief that's all about bad behavior.

Personally, I take a dim view of lawmakers making it easy to discriminate. Much like the "Stand your ground" laws that allow for killing people you don't like because you FEEL threatened.

PS.>Looking to have a GREAT year<

excon · Feb 21, 2014, 08:52 AM

Hello again, Steve:

forcing me to violate those beliefs

Well, THAT'S the problem, because when you bring those beliefs into the PUBLIC sphere, the discussion becomes WHO'S beliefs does the state back? YOUR beliefs do not trump MINE.

If your beliefs are SOOOOO important to you, then WHY are you doing business with the secular community AT ALL? Doesn't a LOT of what they do OFFEND you??? Should you be required to bake a cake for a jaywalker, a wife beater, or an adulterer??

What if some black guy who's NOT gay, but swishes a little bit, is refused service? Can he sue?

excon

speechlesstx · Feb 21, 2014, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

Well, THAT'S the proble, because when you bring those beliefs into the PUBLIC sphere, the discussion becomes WHO'S beliefs does the state back? YOUR beliefs do not trump MINE.

I believe that's what I said, your beliefs don't trump mine so how can you force me to violate mine???????

If your beliefs are SOOOOO important to you, then WHY are you doing business with the secular community AT ALL? Doesn't a LOT of what they do OFFEND you??? Should you be required to bake a cake for a jaywalker, a wife beater, or an adulterer??

So I was right, you think Christians should only practice their religion in the home or church. Sorry, ain't happening buster and I'm damned offended you think so.

talaniman · Feb 21, 2014, 09:15 AM

So the Christians who don't discriminate against their fellow man is WRONG? What if he will sell a cop a donut? Is it okay for him to do a gay wedding cake too?

speechlesstx · Feb 21, 2014, 09:32 AM

Hey, I tried to be reasonable and rational but there is obviously no point in arguing with two people who think it's OK top force nuns to buy birth control and expect us to keep our beliefs at home. Keep your own damn beliefs at home.

tomder55 · Feb 21, 2014, 09:34 AM

I wonder what would happen if a Black deli owner refused to cater a local KKK chapter event ? ....or a gay owner forced to cater to an American Family Association meeting ? Last year there was a band that pulled out of performing at a Boy Scout Jamboree because of the groups position on allowing gay scouts. Wonder why they should have such discriminatory rights ?

Wondergirl · Feb 21, 2014, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

So the Christians who don't discriminate against their fellow man is WRONG? Is it okay for him to do a gay wedding cake too?

After studying the Bible all my life, my guess is that Jesus would have not only baked the cake, but decorated it too and also happily attended the gay wedding.

speechlesstx · Feb 21, 2014, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

After studying the Bible all my life, my guess is that Jesus would have not only baked the cake, but decorated it too and also happily attended the gay wedding.

It's your right to believe that but I think you'd be sorely disappointed.

Wondergirl · Feb 21, 2014, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

there is obviously no point in arguing with two people who think it's OK top force nuns to buy birth control

No nun is forced to buy birth control. Have you done a survey as to how many nuns have been prescribed birth control pills because of "female problems" or acne?

talaniman · Feb 21, 2014, 09:41 AM

There you go again, getting all excited instead of debating the issues. I wouldn't make nuns buy BC. Nor does the law, but the nuns don't want anyone buying BC, not even separately aside from the their own healthcare coverage. I mean what's wrong with their female employees having a separate rider that they want?

And some nuns doesn't object and offer a full range of female health concerns as part of their ministry. Right here in Texas. Are they wrong too?