[talaniman]

Expanding the pie equally? Show me a policy or position that does that.

[tomder55]

I did not say equally .. I said everyone benefits when a rising tide lifts all boats . There was a time when the Dems believed that too. Before the radical progressives took over the party . Now ;in the immortal words of Madame Mimi ,we are told to "Embrace the Suck " . That's all your side has to offer .

[talaniman]

We have accepted we don't get everything we desire and can compromise to move the process forward. Eliminating poor peoples welfare, and not corporate welfare hasn't worked to raise any tides for all to benefit either.

[tomder55]

Good for you that the Beltway dinosaur media is circling the wagons around their favorite big government Repubics and spinning the tale about how they courageously standing up to conservatives.

[paraclete]

What happened over there, you got a budget deal done with BO out of town for Mandela's funeral. you should send him out of town more often

[tomder55]

What happened over there, you got a budget deal done with BO out of town for Mandela's funeral. you should send him out of town more often

the selfie Emperor .. It aint done yet ...The Dems may try to add an extension of unemployment benefits in the Senate . The budget deal is a classic "Wimpy deal" .....Wimpy is a character in the Popeye cartoons who says repeatedly ...."I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" .
The deal the Repubics cut with the Dems allows for an immediate increase in budget spending over the sequester numbers in exchange for the promise of budget reductions in a decade . How many times do the Repubics have to be suckered by Dem lies ?

[paraclete]

hey Tom, it's a plan. Noone can do what they would like to do today. I think we have all come to realise the GFC did more damage than we would like to admit. What they are really saying is it will take generational change to get it done, the tried men of today's politics don't have the will to pull the kid off the teat and forceably wean it. Even in our wonderfull nation we see the deficit getting significantly bigger before it reduces, and don't forget we started from a zero base, how much worse must it be for a nation significantly in debt.

Now when are we going to get serious and stop this QE nonsense

[talaniman]

Get your own Federal Reserve Clete, or go on the gold standard.

Australia shares set for cautious start ahead of Fed meeting | Reuters

Oh that's right you do.

[tomder55]

you know my position on QE ... This is basically the same beggar thy neighbor mistake that happened in the 1930s . It made a very messy 1940s .

[talaniman]

No doubt markets values will shrink as the easing gets more considerations. But that's no different than the shrinking that will occurs when municipalities shake the bond markets with bankruptcies.

Analysis: Little respite seen for U.S. municipal bonds in 2014 | Reuters

(Reuters) - The withering U.S. municipal bond market will shrink even more well into 2014, with interest rate and credit risks keeping both investors and borrowers away.

Barring an unforeseen turnaround in the final weeks of 2013, municipal bonds will post their first negative annual performance since the financial crisis, with investors fleeing municipal funds at a record pace and the market's overall size, now less than $3.7 trillion, contracting for a third straight year.

Analysts, portfolio managers and traders say concerns about the Federal Reserve scaling back its massive stimulus, and about the financial soundness of state and local governments, will keep hitting the market at least through the first half of next year. They expect debt issuance to fall further and investors to continue exiting bond funds....."In the growth years, 2000 to 2010, you had debt for new infrastructure growing significantly and you had refunding," said Chris Mier, managing director of analytical services at Loop Capital, which forecasts 2014 issuance only at $300 billion. "Now you're seeing ... new money volume for these infrastructure projects flat because of the political environment and the aversion for taking out new debt."

On the demand side, net outflows from muni funds - which have already hit a record $52.76 billion this year - could persist for three to six months, said Vanguard's Alwine.

Outflows during the third quarter alone, $32 billion, exceeded total net outflows of any entire year going back to 1992, according to Lipper, a Thomson Reuters company.

Many funds hold Puerto Rico bonds because they are exempt from state and federal taxes, and some outflows were driven by the territory's budget woes. Detroit's bankruptcy filing - the largest municipal one in U.S. history - also led to outflows.

Still, "maybe 80 percent was driven by fears of interest rates going higher," said BlackRock Managing Director Peter Hayes, who heads the firm's municipal bonds group.

The translation is tax payers will be on the tab for liabilities, while assets will be sold cheap. A ten year jobs/infrastructure plan while the interest rates were very low would have avoided defaulting on debt payments while making a strong revenue stream for cities and states facing financial insolvency.

It would also avoid the high cost of bankruptcy as banks will not be able to charge fees that are generally the projected interest and payments they would have received if those cash strapped municipalities had made, or could have made on time as contracted.

[paraclete]

Get your own Federal Reserve Clete, or go on the gold standard.

Tom when will you learn that what you do echos, you wouldn't think your QE would effect us but it effects our currency and therefore our market. Over recent years your fiscal policy has driven up the value of our curency making us uncompetative in certain markets. The result of this is seen in the demise of our car industry, the demise of our airline industry and the struggle of other export based industries such as education and tourism. I don't think your own industries directly benefited but it is a begger my neighbour and my ally policy

[talaniman]

Tom didn't make that statement, I did Clete, and if you squandered the time that QE allowed you to restructure you fiscal house using the low interest rates that's the fault of your own government policies. But don't feel bad, few did including my own government. Many banks and businesses did though, and profits were through the roof while governments cut to the bone, or tried to.

Yes we are interlinked and our politicians are as stupid as yours are. We just have more.

[paraclete]

Well sorry Tal, but we do have our own federal reserve and sometimes it's policies are as inexplicable as yours. They have been forced to lower interest rates to hold down the value of the currency because the interest rates in your nation create an artificial market for capital and at the same time mean that currencies like ours become the home of speculators, probably your own hedge funds. Because of the
lower interest rates we are seeing once again an explosion in housing prices

As far as your politicians are concerned, it is a great pity that a revolution isn't in the offering. We succeeded in getting rid of some of ours who were causing great harm, but the electorate is fickle

[tomder55]

They have been forced to lower interest rates to hold down the value of the currency because the interest rates in your nation create an artificial market for capital and at the same time mean that currencies like ours become the home of speculators, probably your own hedge funds. Because of the
lower interest rates we are seeing once again an explosion in housing prices

classic beggar thy neighbor. The ant--free trade people wouldn't understand the impact of government policies.

[talaniman]

Posted by Clete,
Well sorry Tal, but we do have our own federal reserve and sometimes it's policies are as inexplicable as yours. They have been forced to lower interest rates to hold down the value of the currency because the interest rates in your nation create an artificial market for capital and at the same time mean that currencies like ours become the home of speculators, probably your own hedge funds. Because of the lower interest rates we are seeing once again an explosion in housing prices

As far as your politicians are concerned, it is a great pity that a revolution isn't in the offering. We succeeded in getting rid of some of ours who were causing great harm, but the electorate is fickle

Then its you who needs a revolution, like we over here are revolting now. Not our fault your electorate is fickle. We do not set your prices or interest rates YOU do through your own fed. Obviously somebody over there is making money whether you agree to the policies or not. Maybe you should complain to your own free market values and your fickle electorate.

classic beggar thy neighbor. The ant--free trade people wouldn't understand the impact of government policies.

I am not anti trade just FAIR trade, and reviewing the trade agreements from NAFTA to the newer TPP treaty I have doubts of fair. Cheap labor on steroids, that will costs us jobs at home. You have said the business model has been broken many times yourself. Yet you perpetrate the status quo. So now you are a libertarian or something?

[tomder55]

You have said the business model has been broken many times yourself. Yet you perpetrate the status quo. So now you are a libertarian or something?

??? You love putting words in my mouth . For the record ,the capitalist system is fine . What you fail to admit is that when you put regulations in place that ONLY large corporations can afford to comply with,then you create the climate where only large corporations thrive.

Where the business model is "broken" per se is where government interferes .

Don't mistake NAFTA and the proposed Korea free trade agreement as true free trade .They are bastardized versions of free trade .

[paraclete]

Tom at least you see they are begger my neighbour policies, but free trade isn't the answer, free trade has ruined your economy as much as ours. Employment on the home front should be protected and certain industries should be declared starategic industries which are protected. I see auto, aircraft, and ship building as strategic industries, I see instrument, steel and aluminium as strategic industries, I even see film making as strategic and if we are serious about stopping CO2 we should stop transporting heavy objects around the globe. Now this is radical thinking in this age. the time has come to junk these free trade policies that have advantaged people who might actually be our enemy, kick a few multinational corporations in the teeth and get real about what is important, and it isn't profit over people

[talaniman]

Well for sure cheap labor and lax laws around the globe is what has destroyed our economy, and unfair distribution of the wealth. That's not free trade, that's the oligarchs exploiting the masses on a global level. That's not capitalism, its robbery. Its using money as a whip and chain.

[paraclete]

Yes Tal but you will never get Tom and his ilk to agree, they think Adam Smith was a saint.

The whole system is built on greed, the need to accumulate, and you watch what happens when wealth is concentrated in the hands of the 1%, they squirrel it away for fear they might loose a little, they are actually afraid the middle class and the working class might actually get some money and not need their trickle down economics, trickle down what a myth

[talaniman]

Trickle down is a real concept and the nick name of supply side economics that works very well for the top tier investor, but allows for huge disparities and undo influence of market forces on ordinary workers. Its no secret that the decline of unions and the shrinking of the middle class is directly related to stagnant wage growth by a large segment of the population, as their jobs are outsourced to less competitive countries with little or no regulatory structure.