[paraclete]

I keep telling you about listening to the whiners. Can't you Google your own facts from Australia? I tell the wingers all the time get the whole story, and not just the hollering points from their favorite right wing rag.

Tal google works fine some of the time but who can be sure of the facts. It appears you have a problem and the size of the problem is the point of contention. Social change always leads to contention.

You have a very polarised electorate at the moment and therefore you have a lot of shoutin' and hollerin' and maybe it's much ado about nothin' and maybe not. The question as I see it is, whether, at the end of the day, you will have more uninsured of a different class than you started with, and whether you will have a lot of satisfied customers or a lot of disgruntled customers.

Why am I interested? because inevietably what you model over there finds its way here and serves to undermine what we have

[speechlesstx]

Irony alert again, Tal talking down to others about facts over talking points.

[NeedKarma]

Tal talking down to others about facts over talking points.

Irony alert.

[speechlesstx]

Irony alert.

No one cares what you think.

[speechlesstx]

Remember that if you like your doctor promise we said would be broken? It begins...

White House Tries To Rewrite Obama's 'Keep Your Doctor' Promise | Washington Free Beacon

[NeedKarma]

Remember that if you like your doctor promise we said would be broken? It begins...

No one cares what you think.

[smoothy]

Poll: Obamacare support, Obama approval sink to new lows - CBS News

A drop of 12 points in the last month alone... and this is a left wing poll by a group VERY friendly to Obama and democrats.

"........A rocky beginning to the opening of the new health insurance exchanges has also taken its toll on how Americans perceive the Affordable Care Act. Now, approval of the law has dropped to 31 percent - the lowest number yet recorded in CBS News Polls, and a drop of 12 points since last month. Sixty-one percent disapprove (a high for this poll), including 46 percent who say they disapprove strongly. ...."

[speechlesstx]

No one cares what you think.

I think people want to keep their doctor, prove me wrong.

[talaniman]

You aren't wrong but do you have to throw 47 million people who WANT a doctor under the bus for 3 million who may have to get better insurance?

Changing insurance won't always mean changing a doctor. Your math is faulty. 47 million to maybe 3million??

[speechlesstx]

You aren't wrong but do you have to throw 47 million people who WANT a doctor under the bus for 3 million who may have to get better insurance?

Changing insurance won't always mean changing a doctor. Your math is faulty. 47 million to maybe 3million??

Do you always have to return to the same false argument? No one wants people to go without health care, but why destroy it for everyone for an agenda?

[talaniman]

Not everyone, maybe(?) 1.3% of the population will have to make adjustments. Many for the better when the dust clears.

What's your alternative? Mine is Medicare for EVERYONE. What's YOURS?

[speechlesstx]

Not everyone, maybe(?) 1.3% of the population will have to make adjustments. Many for the better when the dust clears.

What's your alternative? Mine is Medicare for EVERYONE. What's YOURS?

Please, didn't I just say "do you always have to return to the same false argument?" Stop pretending we haven't offered alternatives, we have, but they won't satisfy you because the ONLY alternative you'll accept is single payer government run health care.

Meanwhile, The Liar's lies keep getting exposed.

Obama was briefed earlier in year on health website problems | Reuters

If you want something, don't sell it to us based on a web of lies. Makes it quite difficult to regain trust.

[speechlesstx]

OK, you really must start questioning the regime's competence. Why would anyone go out and do an orchestrated media event and actually feature Healthcare.gov as part of it, knowing full well it's only 60% -70% built and it's likely going to crash on you?

Sebelius, wearing green, walked through the front doors of North Shore Hospital near Miami Shores where she shook hands with hospital staff and members of the Epilepsy Foundation who are staffing the Obamacare Navigation center housed off the hospital’s lobby. There she met with the team helping South Floridians to sign-up on line or on paper.

“So she is being helpful,” asked the secretary to a couple sitting at one table of a navigator. “Absolutely,” they responded.

At a second table, the secretary met Carmen Salero who was trying to sign up online. As the secretary and Salero made small talk, CBS4′s Brian Andrews noticed the site crash on the lap top in front of them.

“The screen says I’m sorry but the system is temporarily down,” Andrews pointed out. “Uh oh,” responded the secretary. “That happens every day,” said Salerno, “it must mean a lot of people are on there trying to get coverage.”

I guess the first such flop wasn't enough.

[Tuttyd]

Please, didn't I just say "do you always have to return to the same false argument?" Stop pretending we haven't offered alternatives, we have, but they won't satisfy you because the ONLY alternative you'll accept is single payer government run health care.

The problem is the alternative you offer isn't really alternative. It's piecemeal tinkering. It still will be a system that will still have winners and losers. Why? Because of the inability to address the problem of equity of health care. Until your 'alternative' addresses this problem then you don't really have a solution.

[speechlesstx]

"Equity" is unworkable Utopian nonsense. There will always be winners and losers no matter what anyone does. Obamacare is a perfect example of that, millions will be punished with higher premiums and fewer choices in providers to provide "equity" in health care for the few while the elite will sit in their high places and snub their noses while they get whatever they want. At least our alternatives don't make things WORSE.

[Tuttyd]

"Equity" is unworkable Utopian nonsense. There will always be winners and losers no matter what anyone does. Obamacare is a perfect example of that, millions will be punished with higher premiums and fewer choices in providers to provide "equity" in health care for the few while the elite will sit in their high places and snub their noses while they get whatever they want. At least our alternatives don't make things WORSE.

I have been through this already and it was conveniently ignored. Yes, it's unachievable and utopian when taken as a vision for the whole of society. That doesn't prevent an attempt at moving towards equity in specific areas such as health care.

Of course Obamacare is an example of fewer choices, winners and losers. You are paying the price for a long history for thinking that equity means treating individuals who are unequal in economic terms in the same way as you treat individual in terms of health care. In other words, individuals should receive healthcare according to what is perceived as their needs, not according to their actual needs.

You will never achieve anything unless you address the historical problem.

[talaniman]

The historical problem is that some humans have less value than others though the words all men were created equal is the premise. So who lied?

[smoothy]

The historical problem is that some humans have less value than others though the words all men were created equal is the premise. So who lied?

Who Lied? Obama lied... over and over.

[talaniman]

So did George, and Thomas. The nation was built on lies.

[Tuttyd]

The historical problem is that some humans have less value than others though the words all men were created equal is the premise. So who lied?

Perhaps a kinder way of saying it would be that some individual contribute more to society than others. Wrong headed type of thinking is to believe that life is a level playing field whereby everyone can be achieve success. There are different types of equity available for a society to prioritize.