[talaniman]

Well if you don't have money, OR insurance, how do you pay a doctor, or a pharmacy, or a grocer for that matter?

How do you even know what you have if it's NEVER been used?

[speechlesstx]

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Thanks, buddy. I even de-capitalized your name yesterday in protest.

[smearcase]

If you like your Dr., you can keep your Dr. is gonna be a tougher one to get past. It will have to be modified to: if you like ... you can keep your Dr. if he/she stays in business, doesn't retire, doesn't quit accepting your insurance plan, the affiliated hospital doesn't close, he/she refuses to go to work for the hospital as the plan hopes to accomplish, doesn't stop accepting Medicare which will kill your secondary/backup policy, doesn't convert to requiring a retainer fee as many are, or probably 50 other reasons.
I have talked to at least 4 Dr's over the past 4 months. None have given me any assurance that I see them for my next appt.
All that is left of the law is the "buy insurance or get 'taxed' part" and that only applies now to certain folks, and to certain businesses. How would the supremes look at it now?

[talaniman]

Nothing has changed, except we are closer to an election. You have to take a vote in the house to FIX stuff to justify what you did in a part time congress. As long as you talk about ACA, you don't talk about other stuff, like jobs, immigration, or the budget. Or... the truth.

17 working days left for the congress. They will holler, but very little if any of the people's work will get done.

[tomder55]

That's ok ... When the gvt is on vacation I always feel a little bit better .

[paraclete]

That's ok ... When the gvt is on vacation I always feel a little bit better .

well I can understand that if politicians arn't legislating you can feel relieved but government is never on vacation, out to lunch maybe, but never on vacation

[speechlesstx]

well I can understand that if politicians arn't legislating you can feel relieved but government is never on vacation, out to lunch maybe, but never on vacation

Then what was all that indignant scaremongering Iover the shut down all about?

[paraclete]

Then what was all that indignant scaremongering Iover the shut down all about?

Something about changing BO's mind, we all know shlt happens, particularly where politicians meet. Those good ole boys hellp a little protest of their own, didn't change much, but maybe it cleared the air

[tomder55]

Something about changing BO's mind, we all know sh*t happens, particularly where politicians meet. Those good ole boys hellp a little protest of their own, didn't change much, but maybe it cleared the air

Nothing changes the emperor's mind. Even his humbling admission that he lied is couched in language that suggests he thinks the real problem is that the people are just too stupid to understand him.
there is no doubt that the way I put that forward unequivocally ended up not being accurate .....I get how upsetting this could be especially after hearing assurances from me But of course it wasn't his fault . He didn't know the web site wouldn't work . He didn't know that the grandfather clause would result in all these folks losing their insurance after he told them otherwise.

[paraclete]

Nothing changes the emperor's mind. Even his humbling admission that he lied is couched in language that suggests he thinks the real problem is that the people are just too stupid to understand him.
there is no doubt that the way I put that forward unequivocally ended up not being accurate .....I get how upsetting this could be especially after hearing assurances from me But of course it wasn't his fault . He didn't know the web site wouldn't work . He didn't know that the grandfather clause would result in all these folks losing their insurance after he told them otherwise.

Well Tom you can point the blame to all those useless politicians who were involved in framing the law and passing the law, obviously illerate, since they can't understand the written word, and if BO genuinely believed those conditions to be part of the legislation, who undermined his intention?..It maybe that his aides are the ones who are too stupid to understand him, or was it the fix was in, corruption triumphed over common sense and political will

[tomder55]

even you carry water for him .......unbelievable !

[smearcase]

And he didn't know (or his totally incompetent staff didn't have enough sense to tell him) that each state's insurance commissioner has the final say on whether or not those discontinued policies (if resurrected by the insurance companies) can be sold in that insurance commissioner's state. And that should have been known and clarified before that big PERIOD was put on the end of the promise.
The commissioners who want to do the most damage to obamacare will have a hard time deciding. Say no and not bail obama out of his predicament with the folks who were kicked off. Or say yes, and keep as many people as possible out of enrolling in the exchanges making the entire program less likely to succeed.
None of these politicians (from any party) have the citizens wellbeing in mind, just how can I make myself look good and embarrass the other side at the same time.
I get the feeling that everything Congress touches is just as screwed up as the obamacare boondoggle, and if that's the case--Goodnight and Good luck.

[paraclete]

I get the feeling that everything Congress touches is just as screwed up as the obamacare boondoggle, and if that's the case--Goodnight and Good luck.

You are obviously right, and the problem is reliance on politicians to do something in the interests of the people. Congress is not a synominum for progress, but for regressive behaviour, an impediment to progress. How can it be expected that 500 people could agree on anything?

[tomder55]

and not only that ..... unless Congress passes legislation ,and the emperor signs the bill saying those policies are legal ;then they are not ,and the insurance companies will be faced with the choice of offering illegal polices ,or face the fall out when the emperor blames them for not offering the illegal policies .

[paraclete]

even you carry water for him .......unbelievable !

you think it is carrying water for BO to recognise that there is incompetence in government, unbelievable.

[tomder55]

if you think that the emperor was insularly removed from the process as he'd like us to believe then yes ,you are carrying his water . He'd like us to believe that he remained in his cocoon in the White House while Madame Mimi ,Reid ,and all his staff wrote laws ,regulations keeping him outside ,while they constructed a Potamkin agenda for him . Well if you believe that then yes ,you have joined the ranks of the Obots.

[paraclete]

if you think that the emperor was insularly removed from the process as he'd like us to believe then yes ,you are carrying his water . He'd like us to believe that he remained in his cocoon in the White House while Madame Mimi ,Reid ,and all his staff wrote laws ,regulations keeping him outside ,while they constructed a Potamkin agenda for him . Well if you believe that then yes ,you have joined the ranks of the Obots.

If I understand the operation of your democracy, the President is personally aloof from the detail of legislation, that role being delegated to the Legislature, who must remain responsible for the detail. I don't reject that the White House and the various departments of government have a role in drafting legislation and a certain responsibility for outcomes and implementation. In this case it was the reconciliation process which failed, principally because it wasn't implemented. Whether it would have removed undesirable characteristics is a moot point. However leadership sets the agenda and appears to have been abdicated in this instance. Someone wasn't listening and certainly that must go back to the legislature and an early unwillingness to compromise

All of this does nothing to advance the cause of a more inclusive health care system which appears to be at the centre of the intention

[talaniman]

There is another factor working here that nobody recognizes and that's the health care industry and the team of lawyers and accountants they employ to pick any law or regulation apart and exploit any crack or weakness they can for profit.

As I said before the grandfather clause was put in place for a reason and insurance companies had based all their economic projections on getting rid of some of those cheap junk policies they had been issuing since the law had passed.

Another not so apparent fact is themselves who wasted no time and effort to rid themselves of these carriers, and I have provided many links bearing this out, and indeed many state insurance commissioners have come out rather quickly to oppose this so called 'if you like it", you can keep it fix.

And let me knockdown this notion of the reconciliation process that repubs and no nothings have decried, didn't work. The fact that dems coordinated this effort to prevent the repubs from stopping the law from passing was masterful, almost as masterful as the way Bush got his tax cuts, and believe just like the Bush tax cuts must be revisited in10 years.

By then I am sure repubs will still be trying to undermine the ACA much like they are still trying to undermine all the elements of the social safety net, from the New Deal, to Medicare. That's just what they do. That's what they have always done. No middle class, no unions, and no opposition to making mo' money. They call this robbery and extraction "market based solutions".

I call it "greedy bast@ds".

[tomder55]

And let me knockdown this notion of the reconciliation process that repubs and no nothings have decried, didn't work. The fact that dems coordinated this effort to prevent the repubs from stopping the law from passing was masterful, almost as masterful as the way Bush got his tax cuts, and believe just like the Bush tax cuts must be revisited in10 years.

Except for the fact that taxing is part of the budgetary process and subject to reconciliation . Making societal changing legislation is not subject to budget trickery .And trickery it was. They passed a budget bill and then stripped it of all it's budgetary language ,and inserted in the language of OBamacare...... that then got passed in reconciliation with no debate .
Also unlike the Bush tax cuts ,Obamacare doesn't have an expiration date .If Obamacare was a budgetary law that allows reconciliation ,then like all budgets ,it should have an expiration date .

[talaniman]

You will have to do more than say the budgetary language was stripped out, since it did in fact make changes that paid for the ACA. All fiscal budgetary matter affect people socially from the levying of taxes, to poor relief. Providing subsidies and tax breaks for poor people to have health insurance is certainly a budgetary matter.

Admit it, you never believed that poor people should have squat in the first place. And minimum wage workers surely don't deserve a raise because more expensive workers is bad for profits, which have been growing dramatically.

Like I said GREED!