[speechlesstx]

So since the results you want are not instant then the whole process is a failure?

No more than it means "we WON" before anything has happened. I just think you and ex are being overly optimistic and awfully trusting of some really shady characters. I'm not that naïve, we got got.

[talaniman]

So we should walk away and say forget it, or are you mad it wasn't bombs away?

[speechlesstx]

I implied neither. I don't trust Putin or Assad and believe they're the ones that came out on top in this and we look silly.

[tomder55]

The forces we are backing as the "good rebels " are uniting with the AQ and jihadist infiltrators as has already been noted . Abd al Aziz Salamah, the leader of Liwa al Tawhid, announced that 11 rebel groups, including AQ's Al Nusrah Front , signed a statement that called for sharia, and urged all groups to unite.
According to Jane's, nearly half of the 100,000 rebel fighters are "now aligned to jihadist or hardline Islamist groups"
Syria: nearly half rebel fighters are jihadists or hardline Islamists, says IHS Jane's report - Telegraph
Free Syrian Army fighters have also been defecting to al Qaeda's affiliates by the thousands.

Hundreds of Syria rebels pledge loyalty to Qaeda groups: activists | Reuters

Are we still arming the rebels ? Yes . There's your victory .

[speechlesstx]

the forces we are backing as the "good rebels " are uniting with the AQ and jihadist infiltrators as has already been noted . Abd al Aziz Salamah, the leader of Liwa al Tawhid, announced that 11 rebel groups, including AQ's Al Nusrah Front , signed a statement that called for sharia, and urged all groups to unite.
According to Jane's, nearly half of the 100,000 rebel fighters are "now aligned to jihadist or hardline Islamist groups"
Syria: nearly half rebel fighters are jihadists or hardline Islamists, says IHS Jane's report - Telegraph
Free Syrian Army fighters have also been defecting to al Qaeda's affiliates by the thousands.

Hundreds of Syria rebels pledge loyalty to Qaeda groups: activists | Reuters

Are we still arming the rebels ? Yes . There's your victory .

Yeah, we sure aced this one, that there is what you call "smart power.".

[talaniman]

I implied neither. I don't trust Putin or Assad and believe they're the ones that came out on top in this and we look silly.

Let 'em laugh.

the forces we are backing as the "good rebels " are uniting with the AQ and jihadist infiltrators as has already been noted . Abd al Aziz Salamah, the leader of Liwa al Tawhid, announced that 11 rebel groups, including AQ's Al Nusrah Front , signed a statement that called for sharia, and urged all groups to unite.
According to Jane's, nearly half of the 100,000 rebel fighters are "now aligned to jihadist or hardline Islamist groups"
Syria: nearly half rebel fighters are jihadists or hardline Islamists, says IHS Jane's report - Telegraph
Free Syrian Army fighters have also been defecting to al Qaeda's affiliates by the thousands.

Hundreds of Syria rebels pledge loyalty to Qaeda groups: activists | Reuters

Are we still arming the rebels ? Yes . There's your victory .

They seem to be fighting Assad, which would you prefer? Them or Assad? Let 'em fight each other. It's far from over.

[tomder55]

Why do I have to make that choice ? Let the dust settle then maybe we will have to deal with the victor. We have 2 nations we have an interest in in the immediate region ,Israel and Jordan. Neither nation will be better off with a jihadist failed state .
My question is why do you want to help the same jihadists who a year ago was murdering Ambassador Chris Stevens ?

[paraclete]

What I don't get is this, Syria has an army in the hundreds of thousands and there are maybe 20,000 rebels. How is it that these rebel forces have not been crushed

[tomder55]

There is a rat line of "rebels" infiltrating through Turkey and Lebanon. The Syrian Army had cut off the rebels from their supply line and was in the process of defeating the rebels when there was this chemical attack that conveniently served the rebels interest..

[paraclete]

There is a rat line of "rebels" infiltrating through Turkey and Lebanon. The Syrian Army had cut off the rebels from their supply line and was in the process of defeating the rebels when there was this chemical attack that conveniently served the rebels interest..

So you are on the side of the rebels used chemical weapons. Point is a strong military force should have been able to win decisive victories but they only control half the country

[tomder55]

How do you read in my statement a support for either side? I've made my position clear . You asked why the rebels haven't been crushed and I thought my reply was self explanatory . The rebels have not been defeated because they are supported financially and with infiltration of weapons and fighters.
BTW ,the Syrian army is no where's near as strong as you suppose. They too have had to rely on outside aid ,including Russian weapons ,and Iranian (Qod forces ) and Hezbollah manpower .

[paraclete]

how do you read in my statement a support for either side? I've made my position clear . You asked why the rebels haven't been crushed and I thought my reply was self explanatory . The rebels have not been defeated because they are supported financially and with infiltration of weapons and fighters.
BTW ,the Syrian army is no where's near as strong as you suppose. They too have had to rely on outside aid ,including Russian weapons ,and Iranian (Qod forces ) and Hezbollah manpower .

No I suppose there is just so much a conscript army can do when their heart isn't in it, but given they have the support of Hezbollah they should have achieved more than they have. Still I see parallels in your own civil war where forces were tied up for years defending the capital and couldn't bring a decisive blow on the enemy. If the leadership is good enough you don't succeed, eh?

[tomder55]

Ours was a total war of attrition . The North was not going to win until that reality was understood ,and Northern commanders who recognized that promoted. I think Lincoln understood it all along .His Generals at the beginning ,trained in Napoleonic tactics, did not .

[paraclete]

ours was a total war of attrition . The North was not going to win until that reality was understood ,and Northern commanders who recognized that promoted. I think Lincoln understood it all along .His Generals at the beginning ,trained in Napoleonic tactics, did not .

Yes well given Syria's early links with France some of that Nepolanic thinking might remain particularly in the leadership. I don't think Syria is a war of attrition because the guy with the biggest forces always wins that war. I actually think it is a war of stupidity. The government didn't collapse when a few rebels said BOO! As was the case in Eqypt and Tunisia

[tomder55]

. I don't think Syria is a war of attrition because the guy with the biggest forces always wins that war

I've contended it is similar to the Spanish Civil War. The outcome will be determined by external forces. And ,as you know... the Spanish Civil War was a dress rehearsal .

[paraclete]

I've contended it is similar to the Spanish Civil War. The outcome will be determined by external forces. And ,as you know .....the Spanish Civil War was a dress rehearsal .

Tom I have read the Book of Revelation, I just happen to think it doesn't all play out at once and the rivers of blood that flow in the middle east have flowed and will contunue to flow. I waiting for the army of two hundred million to walk across the Euphraties, This isn't a dress rehearsal, it isn't even a rehearsal. What weapons do you think are being tested here? None because they were tested in Iraq. We know the range of Scud missiles, we know how well spent uranium munitions perform, we know laser guided bombs work and now we have the drone, in a fighter aircraft

[tomder55]

I was not making any biblical references .But this is a dress rehearsal none-the-less for the battle for the control of the ummah . There is also unfortunately a variation of the 'Great Game' being played out here.

[paraclete]

I don't think the Muslims have the stomach to control the ummah that was centuries ago. Yes they may still be pawns in the Great Game, Russians have long memories, a very long history and the US is after all just the successor to the British Empire

[tomder55]

I think you miss the stated goals.. The leaders of these factions all have visions of a renovatio.

[paraclete]

I think you miss the stated goals .. The leaders of these factions all have visions of a renovatio.

I think that's dilusions