[excon]

Hello again, wrong wingers and traitors:

Do I need to REMIND you about this murderer that you guys now LOVE?? Well, I'm going to. You NEED to be embarrassed, and I'm just the one to DO it.

Thanks, tom..

[tomder55]

Tom, when will you learn that flexibility is our foreign policy seeing as we have no control over the tribal civil wars in the rest of the world. All we can do is influence who we can for a better outcome for our and our allies interests

.
Here is the real issue. After Clintoon got a guilty conscious over not intervening in Rwanda ;the Clintonoids ;with the help of George Soros' Open Society Institute came up with this doctrine of responsibility to protect (R2P) . That is the basis of all the emperor's thinking .It has nothing to do with flexibility and it certainly has nothing to do with realpolitik . Ex speaks of the Arab Spring . The truth is that we have had a policy of supporting the worse kind of jihadists in every country where there has been an uprising . The sad truth is that the only nation that was worthy of us giving support to opposition to the regime was Iran. In that case the emperor ignored the moral outrages of the 12er's and turned the other way when the opposition begged for our non-military assistance .
The correct US position in Syria is to not get involved .

[talaniman]

While I think your extrapolation of policy is a bit muddled, I am curious what we should have done in Iran?

The fall of dictators through out the Arab nations is a process in progress even if you don't like the various factions that have emerged, or the reaction to them as the factions jockey for positions they have never had before.

It will be the same in Syria, if he holds power, which in the longer run, I doubt, but for now, you better wait and see what develops before you play a losing hand. Democracies are messy, or have you forgotten our own progression to a better union.

The Arab spring nations are novices at establishing a fair rule of law, considering they have spent generations being told how to live and think with brutal consequences for disobedience.

[tomder55]

even if you don't like the various factions that have emerged

especially the ones that attacked us on 9-11-01 and 9-11-12... killed our ambassador ,stormed and over ran our embassies ;and have sent terrorists to kill Americans in America . What I find curious is why it's US policy to arm them .

Now what should we have done in Iran ? We should've openly and vocally supported them instead of being silent .We should've covertly and openly support the Green Movement . We should've provided them with sat. phones so that they could send the truth of what was happening for the rest of the world to see. Unlike the Arab spring nations , Iran has a young, educated, and politically active population with a large middle class that wants to be part of the global community. Revolution is ripe .The US should've taken those images of suppression and broadcast them for the world the see. Instead ,we had to look deep into the bowels of the internet to find any information of the vibrant movement ;and the brutal crack down. Why did the US press not make it the subject of daily updates like they did in Egypt ? It could've been a game changer. But we did nothing to help . The leaders of the Green Revolution sent a memo to the emperor in 2009 begging for US help... not weapons ,but financial .We turned a deaf ear to their pleas. There was no call for the Mahdi-Hatter or any of the mullahs to step down like what happened in Egypt .
Instead ;the adm secretly was holding negotiations with Tehran because it is no secret that the emperor would love to go there and hold a Nixonian style trip for a "detente".

[speechlesstx]

FYI, I'm not hating on Obama, just admitting to reality. Ex and tal have a lot more faith in Putin and Assad than I do.

[talaniman]

I have no faith in either speaking for myself, and would keep whatever pressure I could on Putin, to keep pressing Assad for compliance.

[paraclete]

Yes Tal we must make sure he complies but with Russia in the mix he is far more likely too, still the real outcome is still a way off, but BO has got the attention off issues like Bengazhi

[tomder55]

Whose "boots on the ground " will secure Syria's wmd ? Assad has been moving his arsenal in the last week. Are we to believe that Assad will be truthful in his declaration of his weapons; and will give “immediate and unfettered” access to OPCW inspectors. As I recall ,the last time inspectors were there they took sniper fire... allegedly from the regime forces .
There is no UNSC or General Assembly resolution backing this agreement up ,so the enforcers have to be the US and /or Russia . So I ask again... whose troops back this agreement up ?

[talaniman]

Its probably fair to say the CW he has stashed can be moved yet again to a secure place for inventory, but what's lost in this is the signing on to the rather extensive treaty which binds him to a specific process. How well he complies with that process is what will matter going forward.

Its not a matter of having boots on the ground, looking for his stash, he is the one who has to make his stash available for inspection, and inventory.

[paraclete]

whose "boots on the ground " will secure Syria's wmd ? Assad has been moving his arsenal in the last week. Are we to believe that Assad will be truthful in his declaration of his weapons; and will give “immediate and unfettered” access to OPCW inspectors.? As I recall ,the last time inspectors were there they took sniper fire....allegedly from the regime forces .
There is no UNSC or General Assembly resolution backing this agreement up ,so the enforcers have to be the US and /or Russia . So I ask again ....whose troops back this agreement up ?

You know the answer to that Tom you want the job done you are going to have to do it, but hey, the nuclear reduction treaty was honoured without bloodshed so maybe there is hope

[tomder55]

Nah this reminds me more of the Iran and NORK nuke process . Stall, negotiate, stall, threaten, negotiate, breakthrough except for one little detail ,deal collapses ,wash ,rinse ,repeat.

[talaniman]

Its on going process Tom, and if countries like our own take years, and decades to reach solutions just imagine how long it takes when you don't even have the semblance of governing structure to facilitate progress or course correction.

The process is seldom smooth and easy, even after two hundred fifty years of tweaking. If we had our own civil war, why are you surprised that others will too?

[tomder55]

What are we talking about ;nation building or the proliferation of WMD ?
My comments above were about the cw issue ;and you are not correct that time is on our side .
Regarding Syrian nation building... American interests are what we should be concerned about... and I see no interest in supporting either the brutal dictatorship of Assad ,and his Iranian patrons ,or the cut throat jihadists and their Salafist patron Sheiks ,and the nut in Turkey trying to restore the Ottoman Empire.

[Wondergirl]

What are we talking about ;nation building or the proliferation of WMD ?
My comments above were about the cw issue ;and you are not correct that time is on our side .
Regarding Syrian nation building ....American interests are what we should be concerned about ....and I see no interest in supporting either the brutal dictatorship of Assad ,and his Iranian patrons ,or the cut throat jihadists and their Salafist patron Sheiks ,and the nut in Turkey trying to restore the Ottoman Empire.

So then what? Blow them all away? And then what?

[tomder55]

I'm not the one advocating using force. If there is no US interest then why are we arming the jihadists ?

[talaniman]

All the rebels are not Jihadists. Its important to differentiate between the many factions loosely knit that make up the rebel forces. The moderate nationals in the rebel coalition has little choice but to arm their less popular forces around the country.

Its not like they can draft the best and brightest, or refuse the help against the common enemy.

[tomder55]

I see nothing good coming out of there . This resembles the Spanish Civil War . Yes there were real nationalists in that conflict too. But the thing most remembered about the war was that Spain was used as a proxy war by outside forces in preparation for a larger conflict in the near future.

[paraclete]

Tom If you stay out of the Syrian war it will not escalate. This is not a proxy for your war with Iran. You cannot arm jihadists and say we are righteous because the legitimate government has used force. This is a war between two undersirable groups. There is no american interest unless you see exclusion of the Russians from the mediterrainan an american interest, or you think that by helping jihadists you are ultimately helping Israel. In your own civil war everyone else stayed out and you ultimately resolved it

[tomder55]

Anyone who thinks our intervention is helping Israel has not thought it through . Israel has not been attacked by a "state" since 1973 . Israel has had to fight against non-state,or failed state attacks frequently . Creating another failed state or 2 (Jordon) will not be in Israel's best interest .

[paraclete]

Yes you and I agree on that and we should agree that if you stay out of it there might be a result which isn't another jihadist state