[troy00]

I am in the middle of a kitchen remodel. I've been doing some light electrical work, looking up and following code. The biggest electrical job I've really had to do so far was take a kitchen light and put in recessed lights.

So, far anytime I've had to move something and the existing wire didn't reach.. I was able to run a whole new line. However, when I took down the original kitchen light fixture there were basically two feeds running into that light fixture. The both are on the same circuit. One feed that powered the old kitchen light fixture (and now the recessed lights) and another line running through the old kitchen light box to a light above the sink. That second line was just basically using the original light fixture box as a junction box really. So, when I wired the recessed lights, one of the cans was going pretty much in that same spot.. so I just did what "they" did and just kept that line running through the now recessed lighting fixture box. Which again.. it's sort of using a jbox. My house was built in like 1974 and you can tell this was wired like this from the get to... not a previous owners modification (I've been in the house for 13 years).

Now I'm reading about how you can't have covered junction boxes and spliced lines are the devil. So, now I'm curious what every else thinks. It this OK?

Also.. and this might sound like a dumb questions.. but aren't recessed lights kind of like covered junction boxes. I mean.. you make the connections.. then put the ceiling up, and the only thing you can get to after that is to change a bulb. How is this different?
Thanks!

[donf]

Good afternoon,

Let's start with the wiring in the ceiling box.

There are two circuit cables, correct? One cable connects to the light fixture and one cable just uses the box as a "passthru", correct?

The cable that passes through the box, is it spliced inside the box also? Are both lights connected to the same wall switch or are the lights on different wall switches?

Recessed lights are not that simple. You have to understand the term "IC" (which stands for in contact with insulation).

If the device has "IC" on it it means it can come in contact with surronding insulation and may in fact be covered by insulation.

If the device is not "IC" rated, then there can be no insulation within 3" of the device. Typically, if the device has insulation covering it, the heat from the light will heat up (because of the insulation trapping the heat) enough to trip a thermal sensor and shut the light off. Once the thermal sensor cools down and closes, the light comes on and the cycle continues "ad nausuim"

[troy00]

Yes.. one cable connects to the light fixture and one cable is using the box as a passthru.. correct.
Yes.. the cable that passes through it spliced inside the box. Both lights are on different switches.

Yes, I know what "IC" means. And I do get that about the insulation. I guess what I was wondering.. whether the housing is IC rated or not.. it's still basically a jbox that covered in the ceiling. That's all.. not big deal really.. was just curious.

[ma0641]

Actually, you do cover the junction box, the code says it must be "accessible". It can be in an attic space, above a suspended ceiling, behind a removable mirror or picture, in a crawl space etc. They cannot be sealed up in a wall. Yes, the boxes for the lights can be used as junction boxes. It is no different than pigtailing or connecting 2 circuits in a wall switch or outlet box. Just make sure all junctions are inside the box. I have used junction boxes above suspended ceilings many times and they always pass inspection

[donf]

I agree with your generalized statement that the terms are somewhat interchangeable and that is loosely true.

The general term would be "Outlet Boxes". Device boxes, junction boxes and so-on are specific outlet boxes. For example a ceiling box is octagonal in shape and must have a weight limit for the luminaire (light device) it can support. If that ceiling box has a weight limit of 50 lbs. and you decide to remove the current light and install a ceiling fan and light combination, then that ceiling box must be able to support the weight. If the fan/light weighs 80 lbs. a new ceiling box listed for greater than 50 lbs. must be used or the existing box must be supported in such a way that it will hold 80 lbs.

There are no such restrictions on a Junction box. Junction boxes are calculated based on the kinds of pulls will be in the box. A straight pull has a different formula from a angle pull.

I personally prefer the use of a Ceiling box term rather than a J box term. But then I can be unreasonable at times.

[troy00]

ma0641
Thanks for replying. I think I'm either explaining it wrong or don't understand your reply. I'm saying that the recessed lights I put in. With recessed light housing.. you have the light (light bulb area) and the light box right next to it (to make the wired connections). All part of the same fixture. But really it seems another way of looking at it.. is that you have a jbox RIGHT next to the light bulb part. And.. junction boxes are not supposed to be enclosed... yet that's basically what you do with a recessed light housing.. you connect it, and then enclose it into the ceiling, except for the actual bulb part. And.. if you have a second story above... and no attic.. you're basically enclosing this "junction box" part of the recessed light housing within the ceiling.

[hkstroud]

Recessed lighting fixtures (can lights) can be removed along with their wiring boxes, without damage or alteration to the building, therefore the wiring is accessible.

[troy00]

hkstroud... you have helped me before... and have always offered good advice... but.. so.. I don't mean to question you as much as just trying to understand... how in the world can the recessed lighting fixtures be removed? I just don't see how... maybe the remodel ones.. but how would the new construction recessed lighting fixtures be removed? Thanks.

[hkstroud]

Recess lighting fixtures are usually installed by cutting a round hole in the ceiling. The wire is pulled through the hole, the fixture is wire and then pushed up in the hole. It is held in place by spring clamps that clamp it to the drywall. If you are using some type that is attached to the framing, then the interior components should be removable from the outer shell.
Regardless the wiring connections must be accessible. That means you must be able to access them with out damage to the building or surfaces. If you are using some type that doesn't make the connections accessible you will not be able to that pass the cable through the fixture.

Beginning to sound like you have remove the ceiling. If so why not rewire this second line with one continuous cable.

Show us some pictures. This second line goes to the other kitchen light, where does it come from?

I can't say that there isn't some recessed fixture that the wiring isn't accessible but I can't think of one. Even the wiring for the fixture itself must be accessible.

[ma0641]

I guess we are stoning with snowflakes. The wire connection box for a recessed lighting luminaire IS a junction box, you can splice wires in it and from it. Otherwise you would have a separate wire to each fixture from a separate switch. What you cannot do is put a box, junction or otherwise, in a sealed space that is not accessible. Even with new construction recessed cans, the trim kit removes, the light plate removes and the wiring is accessible. I am doing a job now where the kitchen remodel left an outlet 4 ft. up the wall. They wanted the outlet 12" off the floor. Drop a wire from the old outlet, used the wall box as a junction box, put a cover on it and then they put a small cabinet and mirror on the wall. J box is covered but accessible, code compliant.

[ballengerb1]

I think Harold is referring to remodeling can fixtures as opposed to new construction fixture which are mailed in place prior to the drywall. I much prefer remodel fixture over new construction, mainly they make drywalling easier

[troy00]

Yes... I did a little research and saw that the you can take the cans apart to get to the jbox.. I guess I never had a reason to see if that was even an option before. It makes more sense now. I get it, thank you.

So... with my "passthru" running through my recessed can jbox.. it would still be accessible in the same way. So, I'm good there correct?

Also.. to answer a question from hkstroud.. yes.. I do have the ceiling off. And I did put new construction cans in. The reason I hadn't just run a continuous line is because I'm not sure where it's going.. It runs from the ceiling down behind the wall where the stove sits.. I am going to replace the drywall behind the stove.. so I'll get a much better view of where it's going.. so maybe I'll do it at that point... depending on what I find. Is it really that much better to run a another line vs. how it is now? Thanks again!

[hkstroud]

One more question, where is the power for the light (which I assume is a fixture in the center of the room) coming from?

[troy00]

Well.. there is a line going to the light over the sink.. which is the spliced one.. not sure where that is coming from..

The line that was powering the OLD light fixture and now the new recessed lighting looks to be coming directly from the switch that operates those light. And before the switch... since I have the ceiling off.. it looks to be coming from the garage where the breaker box is.

[hkstroud]

OK,
Just trying to figure out why the line, from the wall behind the stove to the sink light, was run through the center ceiling fixture.

[ma0641]

"So... with my "passthru" running through my recessed can jbox.. it would still be accessible in the same way. So, I'm good there correct?" Yes.

[troy00]

Thanks.. you guys are always very... very helpful!