[excon]

Hello again, Steve:

I'm the one trying to be flexible enough to make everyone happy.

No, you're the one who wants to make the florist happy. You don't give a sh!t about the gay couple.

Excon

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

No, you're the one who wants to make the florist happy. You don't give a sh!t about the gay couple.

excon

Only in your world does referring someone to another florist that would be happy to do it = I don't give a sh!t about the gay couple. Hell, I would made the calls myself, given them cab fare to get over there and thrown in a dozen roses or a gift certificate just because. You won't budge at all my direction.

[excon]

Hello again, Steve:

You won't budge at all my direction.

Budge? If this florist can get away with discrimination, what makes you think that there would be ANY florists who'll sell to this couple?

Look.. I'm VERY sympathetic towards religion and your right to practice it. However, I DO draw the line when you want to practice it in the public square, and in the marketplace... A hospital is NOT a church.. My public square is NOT a church. Florist shops are NOT church's.

You see, when you practice your religion in your CHURCH, nobody's rights get violated... But, when you want to practice it in the public square, MY rights get violated, and when you want to practice it in the marketplace, LOTS of peoples rights get violated.

Keep your religion in CHURCH where it belongs.

Excon

[talaniman]

unless we adopt your views and behave the way you want. Sorry dude, but that ain't happening - it just pi$$es you guys off that we won't shut and go away or bow to your superior wisdom.

That's the way America has always treated its minorities isn't it? It was called assimilation into the society. Okay they have assimilated and are no longer falling for YOUR superior wisdom. Even if you ask nicely and with flowers they no longer tolerate being asked to the back of the bus.

Yet you expect them too still don't you? Sure you do. You have often written that slavery and discrimination are over so get over it. Its your side that hasn't gotten over it. Discrimination is okay to you, except when its done to YOU.

Then you holler about YOUR rights.

PS, Not you personally, just your conservative and right wing brethren.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:
Budge? If this florist can get away with discrimination, what makes you think that there would be ANY florists who'll sell to this couple?

In other words I was right, there are no religious rights, there is no line that would violate my beliefs. If a satanist wanted me to slaughter a calf and sprinkle the blood on black roses while standing under a pentagram you'd think that was reasonable.

Look.. I'm VERY sympathetic towards religion and your right to practice it. However, I DO draw the line when you want to practice it in the public square, and in the marketplace... A hospital is NOT a church.. My public square is NOT a church. Florist shops are NOT church's.

You don't have the right to make a private business accommodate you in whatever way you wish, period. You think a Christian book store should have to sell someone the Satanic Bible if requested.

You see, when you practice your religion in your CHURCH, nobody's rights get violated... But, when you want to practice it in the public square, MY rights get violated, and when you want to practice it in the marketplace, LOTS of peoples rights get violated.

Keep your religion in CHURCH where it belongs.

As if liberals don't operate their businesses according to their beliefs. Bwa ha ha!!

Come on ex, your arguments are getting really moronic. Business owners don't lose their rights just because you say so. You'd absolutely hate it here, Christians proudly and openly display their faith at their businesses all over town. My faith belongs with me everywhere I go, get over it.

[Wondergirl]

In other words I was right, there are no religious rights, there is no line that would violate my beliefs. If a satanist wanted me to slaughter a calf and sprinkle the blood on black roses while standing under a pentagram you'd think that was reasonable.

Why would he want you to do that?

You don't have the right to make a private business accommodate you in whatever way you wish, period. You think a Christian book store should have to sell someone the Satanic Bible if requested.

The florist question is not WHAT is sold, but WHO is allowed to be a customer. The correct parallel is that your Christian book store would refuse to sell religious material to "someone" (a Satanist?).

[tomder55]

But that's not really appropriate either . She just refused to sell it to them for their "marriage " ceremony .

[speechlesstx]

Why would he want you to do that?

The florist question is not WHAT is sold, but WHO is allowed to be a customer. The correct parallel is that your Christian book store would refuse to sell religious material to "someone" (a Satanist?).

Since my starting point was forcing a business owner to violate their religious beliefs I'll frame it however I wish thank you very much. Ex said religion should be kept out of the marketplace, how far does that go is still the question?

When does violating my religious beliefs as a business owner cross the line? Anywhere?

What part of my faith can I live in my business? Any of it?

I want answers, clear guidelines here, not shifting boundaries that move with whichever way the liberal wind is blowing today. I have freedom of religion, when, where and how can I exercise it with liberal approval?

[tomder55]

I'd like to know that clause that says and individual can not either practice their faith in the market OR the public square.

[talaniman]

Its none of her business what they want them for. Such prescreening for flowers? See l the flowers be done move on get over it. Just like her religious convictions are no one else's business.

As long as they have shoes and a shirt they should expect service. Its in the hands of a judge now so hold your water. But since you have your minds made up, may I point out that's prejudiced?

[excon]

Hello wingers:

It's called the "establishment clause", tom.

If your faith includes not doing business with black people, you won't be able to practice it. There are people who are protected from discrimination by LAW.. I'm not sure if LGBT are on the federal or state list, but they're on the list in MY state.

So, if your religious rights run up against one of those peoples civil rights, you lose.

excon

[tomder55]

The establishment clause prevents the state from forming a state religion (although I think the current progressive government has already violated that with it's secular religion) .It has nothing to do with a business owner practicing their faith or a groups of hikers finding a spot in the public park to have an informal prayer meeting .

If your faith includes not doing business with black people, you won't be able to practice it.

canard... there is no religion real or invented that says that . Again... the beef here is being forced to create a flower arrangement for a gay "wedding " . She never refused selling flowers to gays because they were gay. Your law is in itself a discrimination against the florist shop owner .

[talaniman]

When does violating my religious beliefs as a business owner cross the line? Anywhere?

When you refuse service based on sexual orientation.

Couple takes action against florist for anti-gay discrimination – LGBTQ Nation

“We live in a diverse country, and when a business serves the general public, the business owner's religious beliefs may not be used to justify discrimination,” said ACLU cooperating attorney Michael Scott, who is representing the couple.

The Washington Law Against Discrimination (RCW 49.60.030), which prohibits discrimination because of sexual orientation, bars businesses from refusing to sell goods, merchandise, and services to any person because of their sexual orientation.

The courts have found that businesses open to the general public may not violate anti-discrimination laws, even on the basis of sincerely held religious beliefs, according to the ACLU.

The couple is seeking the following remedies:
That Arlene's Flowers agree not to refuse to provide flowers and other goods and services to any person on the basis of his or her sexual orientation.
That Arlene's Flowers agree to write a letter of apology to Mr. Freed and Mr. Ingersoll to be published in the Tri-City Herald.
That Arlene's Flowers agree to donate $5,000 to the Vista Youth Center in Kennewick, in lieu of payment of attorney's fees.

On Tuesday, Washington state Attorney General Bob Ferguson filed a consumer protection lawsuit against Stutzman, seeking a permanent injunction requiring her flower shop to comply with the state's consumer protection laws and at least $2,000 in fines.

What part of my faith can I live in my business? Any of it?

That depends how you comport yourself when interacting with your fellow human beings.

[speechlesstx]

When does violating my religious beliefs as a business owner cross the line? Anywhere?

When you refuse service based on sexual orientation.

Couple takes action against florist for anti-gay discrimination – LGBTQ Nation



What part of my faith can I live in my business? Any of it?

That depends how you comport yourself when interacting with your fellow human beings.

It's already been established that she sells flowers to and employs gays.

[excon]

Hello again, Steve:

It's already been established that she sells flowers to and employs gays.

She's not being prosecuted for the time she wasn't discriminating - only for the time she WAS.

Excon

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

She's not being prosecuted for the time she wasn't discriminating - only for the time she WAS.

excon

And you also believe a nurse that otherwise does a bang-up job should be punished for refusing to participate in an abortion for convenience sake. Or the pharmacy that refuses to sell the morning after pill, or the Catholic hospital that won't buy contraceptives for its employees or any other example of someone that should be punished or prosecuted when they aren't performing every service or selling every product to every person that demands whatever the hell you think they should be able to demand.

I'm done here, you guys have sufficiently proven you don't give a damn about our rights and are completely unreasonable and unwilling to find middle ground.

[Wondergirl]

And you also believe a nurse that otherwise does a bang-up job should be punished for refusing to participate in an abortion for convenience sake.

Why is this nurse working for a doctor or clinic or hospital that does "convenience abortions"? (She was blindsided?) She needs to job hunt.

[speechlesstx]

Please, enough condescension, I'm not stupid.

Hospital That Forced Nurse to Assist Abortion Changes Policy

The nurse and the patient have individual rights that are clearly supported in the ANA Code for Nurses with Interpretive Statements (2001). The registered professional nurse has professional obligations that must be maintained while providing care to women who choose to have abortions. Additionally, New York Civil Rights Law provides that “no person who refuses in writing on the basis of conscience or religious beliefs may be required to perform or assist in an abortion.”

Hospital Apologizes to Nurses Who Refused to Assist in Abortion

New Jersey nurses charge religious discrimination over hospital abortion policy

For decades, most states, including New Jersey, have had laws protecting nurses and other health-care workers who have moral objections to participating in abortions. In addition, federal laws, such as the Church Amendment, require health-care facilities that receive taxpayer money to permit workers to refuse on ethical grounds.

On Nov. 3, U.S. District Judge Jose L. Linares granted a request for a temporary restraining order barring the hospital from requiring the nurses to undergo training to care for abortion patients, pending a Dec. 5 hearing on the case, which involves 12 of the 16 nurses who work in the hospital’s same-day surgery unit.

Matt Bowman, an attorney representing the nurses, said he had received an e-mail from a lawyer for the hospital arguing that no laws had been broken, because the nurses are required to care for abortion patients only before and after the procedure.

“The pre- and post-operative care provided to these patients is the same nature as that provided to patients who have undergone other surgical procedures,” Edward B. Deutsch of McElry, Deutsch, Mulvaney & Carpenter of Morristown, N.J. wrote in the e-mail.

Bowman argued that requiring the nurses to get involved before and after an abortion violated their right to refuse based on their conscientious objections.

“Federal and state law explicitly prohibits requiring nurses to assist in abortion against their moral and religious convictions,” Bowman said. “All these nurses are asking is that they not have to assist in any part of an abortion case.”

One of the nurses, Fe Esperanza R. Vinoya, said a manager told her: “‘You just have to catch the baby’s head. Don’t worry, it’s already dead.’ ”

“Nursing is a healing profession, and the law protects our right not to provide any services related to abortion,” Vinoya said at a news conference this month.

[talaniman]

The nurse was supported by LAW. The hospital was wrong, you think they'll make a law to refuse service to other humans because of religious convictions though?

I believe the pharmacist is settle law also, not sure if its under national or local jurisdiction.

[cdad]

When does violating my religious beliefs as a business owner cross the line? Anywhere?

When you refuse service based on sexual orientation.

Couple takes action against florist for anti-gay discrimination – LGBTQ Nation



What part of my faith can I live in my business? Any of it?

That depends how you comport yourself when interacting with your fellow human beings.

Im glad they are pursuing it in this manner. The florist wins and case closed. You see she did not discriminate solely on the basis of them being gay but did so on being asked to participate in a religious ceremony that goes directly against her religion.


There is a difference.