[Tuttyd]

Your last words, "The right has been saying for a while now that the only thing they want is repeal, and elimination."

That, sir is dishonest.

This goes beyond the regulatory failures and these particular butchers, which we may agree on, though if I ex ever changed his mind about doubting there were INTENTIONAL failures I don't recall it.

We need to have an honest conversation about life, humanity, women's health PLUS the institutional failures by the gods of abortion themselves.

As Kirsten said, "I cannot legitimately say I am a person who cherishes human rights—the animating issue of my life and a frequent topic of my writing—and remain silent about our country's legally endorsing infanticide."

Can you remain silent about it?

I think the problem so far is that there has been recent conflating of the term 'legal'. There are two types of 'legal' that need to be addressed separately.

(a) There is the legal issue when it comes to the law and abortion. In other words ,what does the law say about the time whereby abortion is regarded as being within the law.

(b) There is also the legal issue when it comes to requirements of standards and professionalism as outlined in the various regulation acts.

What we have here are abortionists who are illegal in every way. In other words, illegal in terms of (a) and (b).

(b) is probably not in dispute by anyone. Dangerous standards of health care need to be weeded out and prosecuted- regardless of the type of health care being offered.

What is in dispute is (a). It is possible to satisfy the requirements of both (a) and (b) at the same time in terms of legality.

In order for an honest debate to take place in this thread one now needs to come up with some type of definitive answer to (a).

[speechlesstx]

There can never be an honest discussion of (a) as long as the abortion absolutists remain in denial about the humanity of the child and (c), the intentional disregard of (a) by those responsible for enforcing (a).

[Tuttyd]

There can never be an honest discussion of (a) as long as the abortion absolutists remain in denial about the humanity of the child and (c), the intentional disregard of (a) by those responsible for enforcing (a).

So how would you define the humanity of the child in terms of (a)?

I am pretty much an absolutist in terms of (a). Humanity beings not long after conception.

[speechlesstx]

I don't believe the humanity of the child will ever be codified, that part will require a change of heart. But, this is one of those rare times we should follow Europe's lead as mentioned in an earlier post and end these late term abortions. If Gosnell hasn't shown these are children and not meaningless blobs of flesh I don't know what will.

[Tuttyd]

I don't believe the humanity of the child will ever be codified, that part will require a change of heart. But, this is one of those rare times we should follow Europe's lead as mentioned in an earlier post and end these late term abortions. If Gosnell hasn't shown these are children and not meaningless blobs of flesh I don't know what will.

Yes, I am a bit of a realist and a negotiator when it comes to most things. If someone says 24 weeks I say 8. Then I would settler for 14

[tomder55]

A child can survive a 2nd trimester abortion (which also requires extinguising the life ,the dismemberment of limbs for the extraction ).As the medicine advances ,the age of viability (if that is the standard )will be younger.Viability is in itself a troubling standard because why is it not also applied to a human outside the womb ?

[Tuttyd]

a child can survive a 2nd trimester abortion (which also requires extinguising the life ,the dismemberment of limbs for the extraction ).As the medicine advances ,the age of viability (if that is the standard )will be younger.Viability is in itself a troubling standard because why is it not also applied to a human outside the womb ?

I think part of the problem is that technology has made it possible for a reasonable change of survival at 24 weeks. Prior to this I would imagine that 24 weeks represented very little chance of survival.

I didn't realize this. Apparently in Australia, Victoria is the only state where abortion is legal upon demand.

[talaniman]

I am a realist also, and we do have the technology in medicine to prevent making the choice to abort or not abort. It starts with a doctor of your choice though, and some informed responsible decision making as soon as possible. By man, and woman.

If you want people to be responsible, they have to have the tools, and how to use them.

[tomder55]

Wasn't sure where to post this ,so this Op is as good as any..

The White House is celebrating Mother's Day by pointing out how many women will not be mothers .

The White House ‏@whitehouse 10 May
Thanks to the #ACA, 1 in 3 women under 65 gained access to preventive care—like birth control—with no out-of-pocket costs. #HappyMothersDay

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23ACA&src=hash

[talaniman]

You rail against the lazy baturds that take free stuff, then you rail against them having more lazy baturds who want free stuff. Then you holler greedy is good.

Geez!!

[tomder55]

Yeah Happy Mother's Day . Kill your baby... free of charge .

[speechlesstx]

You just don't think we should holler at all Tal. Personally I think having to defend all the indefensible crap from this admin is wearing on you. I mean come on, Mother's day is not for Zero to pat himself on the back for preventing the birth of more mothers.

[smoothy]

[paraclete]

All good questions, do something about it

[smoothy]

Breaking news... He was found Guilty of three of the four First Degree murder charges as well as an infanticide charge... more than enough to get the death penalty. Something they very much deserve.

[talaniman]

Hope the monster in Cleveland gets the same thing.

[speechlesstx]

PP offered a typical reaction, no mention of the murdered babies, I guess they aren't victims of his butcher shop - just "let's make sure abortion is safe" and this:

[speechlesstx]

P.S. NARAL's response to the verdict was just as appalling, "Kermit Gosnell has been found guilty and will get what he deserves. Now, let’s make sure these women are vindicated by delivering what all women deserve: access to the full range of health services including safe, high-quality and legal abortion care."

REALLY?? He is GUILTY of 1st degree MURDER of 3 BABIES!!

What about the CHILDREN, you jerks??

[speechlesstx]

And you thought this Gosnell thing was going away, but no I have no intentions of watching it get swept under the rug or lost in the Twitter cycle. So how many more Gosnells do we have and does anyone care, especially among those who should be regulating abortion clinics and PROTECTING women from butchers? Apparently no one cares in Minnesota, where you can get an abortion at any time up to birth.

There are no regulations to protect the lives and health of women in Minnesota, they leave it up to a "trade association" to police clinics.

It’s horrifying to think that the clinic’s conditions were allowed to lead to a woman’s death in a state that had regulations. But what if it happened here?

Minnesota offers no regulations to protect the health and safety of women seeking abortions. In 1974, the Legislature passed a law (which is still on the books) requiring the health commissioner to license and promulgate rules for abortion clinics. The commissioner adopted clinic regulations in 1974, but a federal district court struck them down.

The Legislature attempted to remedy this dangerous omission by passing a clinic regulations bill in 2012, but Gov. Dayton vetoed the bill. He claimed the regulations were unnecessary because Minnesota clinics are adequately monitored by the National Abortion Federation, a national trade association of abortion clinics.

With no time limits on abortion and no regulation of the clinics, how would we even know if practices like those of Dr. Gosnell are happening in Minnesota? Women and children deserve better.

.

Leaving aside the unsettling notion of an abortion "trade association", an abortion is a medical procedure. Having a wart frozen off is regulated more heavily than abortions, it's "surgery." So tell me, how can any reasonable person not require standards to protect the lives and health of women, not to mention the child that survives for such medical procedures??

Induced labor: Medication is administered to the pregnant woman which triggers labor. The woman eventually gives birth to the partly developed fetus.

"D&E" (dilation and evacuation). The physician inserts a long toothed clamp through the woman's vagina into the uterus. She/he grabs body parts of the fetus at random, breaks them from the body and pulls them out. Finally, the head is crushed and extracted. Finally, the placenta and any remaining parts of the fetus are suctioned from the uterus. 1

"D&X" (dilation and extraction) The woman's cervix is dilated. If necessary, the fetus is rotated until it is facing feet downwards. The surgeon reaches into the uterus and pulls the fetus' body, with the exception of its head, out of the woman's body. Surgical scissors are inserted into the base of the fetal skull, and withdrawn. A suction tube is inserted and the fetus' brains are removed through aspiration. This partially collapses the fetal skull. The fetus is then fully removed from the woman's body. 2

How many times have we read here someone throwing a fit at the idea of a physician "forcing a probe" up a woman's vagina before she can have an abortion? Why are you not even more aghast at not only the failure, but as in the case of Minnesota and Pennsylvania the REFUSAL to protect women?

[talaniman]

Write your congressman and tell Issa to start an investigation since they are charged with oversight.

Make up your mind whether you want to fund regulators, or defund them.