[smoothy]

"A while back I came across a saying that implied that we're raising the most sexually frustrated generation. Men are wondering where their 'porn stars' are and women where their 'prince charmings' are."

Then wouldn't the solution for both genders be to spend less time, not more, indulging in fantasy? If the idea is that these fantasies are feeding into and using our natural drives to shape unrealistic expectations to a point that is damaging, isn't this making the opposite argument?

A life devoid of fantasy.. is a life devoid of excitement and aspirations.

I think its more about someone being raised to believe the world revolves around them which is a disservice to them as they start life with unrealistic expectations as they enter the world as young adults.

Since it's the younger generations that seems to have this problem so much more often than the older generations.

[backpack2389]

"Rather learn to pick out the difference between fantasy and reality. What is realistic and what isn't."

It's funny, and sadly, I think true. We do need to learn to separate reality and fantasy, yet the more time you spend indulging in fantasy, the more it becomes your reality. We don't have a good idea of what's 'healthy' consumption (not leading to blurring of the line) and what's not. Also, given the widespread availability of all forms of media, this most recent generation has so many more options of what to consume not to mention the great convenience of it. And what does any business really sell anyway? I think most businesses are, at their foundation, selling convenience. We now have fantasy so convenient, that with the touch of a button you can be with whomever, wherever and boy does my generation take advantage of it.

I think the very existence of a cartoon like this should make one wonder. Something is changing or has already changed in the minds of men and women entering relationships. But, who knows? There aren't standards. All we can really examine are the rates of successful relationships vs failures, but that figure is confounded by so many things.

Fantasy can be an escape, can be fun, but when it is shaping our expectations of reality to the point that we find reality utterly dissatisfying (and thus prefer the fantasy), I think we've crossed a line.

"Since its the younger generations that seems to have this problem so much more often than the older generations."

There are many, many reasons this could be.
If you're thinking that it's because children today are coddled and told that 'they are special' (as I have seen you reference) you must consider that when people did that, they thought they were promoting the emotional health of developing people. It was perhaps a bad idea wrapped in good justifications - as many other bad ideas have been before the consequences were known.

I think the current generation is having more trouble with it because we spend so much more time in fantasy than previous generations. Much of this due to the wide availability/accessibility of all forms of media that we grew up with.

[smoothy]

"Since its the younger generations that seems to have this problem so much more often than the older generations."

There are many, many reasons why this could be.
If you're thinking that it's because children today are coddled and told that 'they are special' (as I have seen you reference) you must consider that when people did that, they thought they were promoting the emotional health of developing people. It was perhaps a bad idea wrapped in good justifications - as many other bad ideas have been before the consequences were known.

I think the current generation is having more trouble with it because we spend so much more time in fantasy than previous generations. Much of this due to the wide availability/accessibility of all forms of media that we grew up with.

Well, unless you were in a very rural area porn was always easily accessible... much more-so in cities were entire blocks in many cases were dedicated to this trade... Most of the standard outlets available to the odler generations were just shifted to newer and different outlets. I came of age towards the end of the way it used to be... then saw Videotape come on the scene... later DVD's and not online digital content.

Before Videotapes because common... there was super-8 films... peep shows... adult movie theaters, and the always available print media... Strip clubs... etc...

Many of those went away.. or most certainly reduced in numbers of just 30 years ago from what was common.

The pervasiveness was there from long before then... so anyone that might be inclined to think today what happened before the internet... might be oblivious to what existed 3 dacades ago because most of those places closed up due to Video tape and even more... property redevelopement in certain zones where it was once common.

Like 42nd street in NYC, 14th Street in Washington DC, "The Block" in Baltimore... where there were literally dozens of businesses that catered to that crowd before you could do it from the privacy of your own home... and they did to a spectacularly booming business. Back then. If people weren't there or happened to see them from certain movies that might have been filmed in those areas (actually not uncommon with 42nd Stret in NYC)... the younger crowd might not know they ever existed. I mentioned those as I knew those areas best... every major city had their own.

So Internet porn didn't rise out of a great viod... it just migrated from other forms of distribution that later faded away..

[backpack2389]

I am aware that porn existed in various forms in just about every civilization in the history of man - though I hadn't heard of some of the places you listed. I'm under no delusion that internet porn came out of a void where there had previously been no porn.

However there is a big difference between making a trip to 'the block' to buy a video that you will probably view/use multiple times at age 18 (as stores have age limits) and viewing multiple videos for an hour a day when you're 11/12 (the age at which most children begin viewing porn today as sites do not have any real age restrictions).

The variety we're exposed to, the level and number of stimuli we come to expect, the amount of time we spend viewing it in our formative years, the ease with which we can access it, all of that has changed. Where before it required some investment, often of time and/or money, it now costs nothing and requires less time - porn now being often preferable to sex as it is infinitely more convenient. Before it might have been more convenient to have sex with the wife at home than to make a trip across town. That's not an issue anymore. This same idea of convenience being key is part of the NY laws about soda. If they make it less convenient to get large amounts of soda in one stop, people will consume less.

There is something different about this most recent generation. Depending on who you talk to, it could be just about anything. And every generation thinks that their generation is superior. 'Those darn kids,' right? But I think it would be wrong to pretend like internet has had nothing to do with the issues facing this most recent generation.

[smoothy]

I am aware that porn existed in various forms in just about every civilization in the history of man - though I hadn't heard of some of the places you listed. I'm under no delusion that internet porn came out of a void where there had previously been no porn.

However there is a big difference between making a trip to 'the block' to buy a video that you will probably view/use multiple times at age 18 (as stores have age limits) and viewing multiple videos for an hour a day when you're 11/12 (the age at which most children begin viewing porn today as sites do not have any real age restrictions).

The variety we're exposed to, the level and number of stimuli we come to expect, the amount of time we spend viewing it in our formative years, the ease with which we can access it, all of that has changed. Where before it required some investment, often of time and/or money, it now costs nothing and requires less time - porn now being often preferable to sex as it is infinitely more convenient. Before it might have been more convenient to have sex with the wife at home than to make a trip across town. That's not an issue anymore. This same idea of convenience being key is part of the NY laws about soda. If they make it less convenient to get large amounts of soda in one stop, people will consume less.

There is something different about this most recent generation. Depending on who you talk to, it could be just about anything. And every generation thinks that their generation is superior. 'Those darn kids,' right? But I think it would be wrong to pretend like internet has had nothing to do with the issues facing this most recent generation.

Trust me... before video tapes.. magazines were way more popular than they are today... and if you had an older brother or dad that had them... you would find them and knew where they were.

And also... while there was supposedly a minimum age... the fact is... if you were even 14 and remotely discrete... nobody ever refused to sell them to you. And every drug store or tobacco store had them... as well as many others. If you had an allowance... if you were old enough to know the differences between boys and girls , you could get magazines through someone a fw years older than you were... and that's even if you are in a rural area far from the city (as I was). It only got easier for kids in the city.

See... I'm old enough to have been through this first hand.myself, this is from my own experiences... I'm not relying on second or third hand acounts. And the first Beta and VHS tape decks didn't come on the scene until after I was out of college. And those first ones were VERY expensive.

At 51... it was always easy to get in my lifetime. And it didn't screw with the heads of my generation, and the generation before me was the hippie generation of the late 60's and early 70's where that was ramped up even higher than it was form my generation.. AIDS came on the scene the fist time when I was in College... and I saw that play out from the very beginning, so there are other outside factors at play here than accesibility of porn. Because like I said... it didn't appear out of a void in recent years.

There were always magazines that catered to most of the fetishes... even back in the 70's and earlier.

Also... the Internet wasn't invented in the latter 1990's as some people believe... it dates back decades earlier... I had my first email account and first used the internet back in 1981... thats no typo... Nineteen eighty one, and it was around a good long time before then. ARPAnet... look it up if you aren't familiar with it sometime. Ever hear of Archie and Veronica? The search engines back before Google was ever an idea for Larry Page and Sergey Brin much less a reality.

[backpack2389]

"Trust me....before video tapes..magazines were way more popular than they are today....and if you had an older brother or dad that had them...you would find them and knew where they were."

I actually spoke with my father about this one time. He is a few years older than you are, married for 30 years. He spent his entire childhood living in small towns. He said that when he was 13 he discovered his father's Playboy stash, and would occasionally manage to sneak off with one - that he would then view for months as getting another was difficult. He still remembers the names of the women in those pictures.

When my boyfriend, and many of my good male friends, deem to discuss their first exposures, the memories recounted often go like this: I was on the computer (googling dirty words, looking up stuff for a class project, etc. ) when I saw a link to a porn website. From there they go on to describe how amazing it was to have so many different naked women available, how there was always a different act to look up, how they never knew that 'x' really looked like that, that women really like that, etc. (It's a huge learning experience and they are children absorbing every minute of it) Then many will go on to say that they, not surprisingly, love it so much that for the next couple of years any time Mom and Dad were gone for the weekend they spent hours looking up all sorts of different videos. When I ask them 'who was the first woman you saw naked?' they say 'I don't know, just some porn star.'

My boyfriend started doing this at age 13, a late bloomer. A couple of my other friends admit to starting this at age 10 and those men actually learned to masturbate from porn. Most young men I know say they began looking at it at about 11 or 12. During my undergraduate, I had male roommates that would literally spend an entire Saturday looking at porn - at the time, I thought that level of consumption was and that they themselves were abnormal. When I leave for the weekend, my boyfriend will spend several hours looking at porn. It's a habit he developed and as far as he feels, there's nothing wrong with a 4 hour porn 'binge' on Saturday. All of this is totally normal for men my age and it is completely different than snagging a once a month dirty magazine.

But, I digress. What you recount as your first exposure to porn involves magazines, hardly as stimulating as videos - if they were even close, then magazine reading would rival video watching as a recreational activity. Purchasing a magazine is again much more costly than looking up a video online. It's also much more boring - the pictures don't move, don't make sounds, they don't have someone having sex with them, they require effort and creativity (to imagine that you're having sex with them), and unlike videos, they are not literally showing you the step by step of someone else's concept of sex. There's much more left to you to figure out and much more stimulation you have to provide yourself - you aren't completely getting all of this stimulation externally.

"And the first Beta and VHS tape decks didn't come on the scene until after I was out of college. And those first ones were VERY expensive."

Right, it was very expensive, but now is free. And despite being free, the industry today makes more money than ever before. That's because there is a level of consumption as has never before been seen - particularly on the part of women. There is something different going on.

"Also....the Internet wasn't invented in the latter 1990's as some people believe....it dates back decades earlier....I had my first email account and first used the internet back in 1981.....thats no typo....Nineteen eighty one"

Even so, your average child would not have had free and easy access to the internet then and it certainly wasn't overloaded with videos the way it is now. Plus, as a computer technician, your experiences with computers are atypical.

[smoothy]

"Trust me....before video tapes..magazines were way more popular than they are today....and if you had an older brother or dad that had them...you would find them and knew where they were."

I actually spoke with my father about this one time. He is a few years older than you are, married for 30 years. He spent his entire childhood living in small towns. He said that when he was 13 he discovered his father's Playboy stash, and would occasionally manage to sneak off with one - that he would then view for months as getting another was difficult. He still remembers the names of the women in those pictures.

When my boyfriend, and many of my good male friends, deem to discuss their first exposures, the memories recounted often go like this: I was on the computer (googling dirty words, looking up stuff for a class project, etc.,) when I saw a link to a porn website. From there they go on to describe how amazing it was to have so many different naked women available, how there was always a different act to look up, how they never knew that 'x' really looked like that, that women really like that, etc., (It's a huge learning experience and they are children absorbing every minute of it) Then many will go on to say that they, not surprisingly, love it so much that for the next couple of years any time Mom and Dad were gone for the weekend they spent hours looking up all sorts of different videos. When I ask them 'who was the first woman you saw naked?' they say 'I don't know, just some porn star.'

My boyfriend started doing this at age 13, a late bloomer. A couple of my other friends admit to starting this at age 10 and those men actually learned to masturbate from porn. Most young men I know say they began looking at it at about 11 or 12. During my undergraduate, I had male roommates that would literally spend an entire Saturday looking at porn - at the time, I thought that level of consumption was and that they themselves were abnormal. When I leave for the weekend, my boyfriend will spend several hours looking at porn. It's a habit he developed and as far as he feels, there's nothing wrong with a 4 hour porn 'binge' on Saturday. All of this is totally normal for men my age and it is completely different than snagging a once a month dirty magazine.

But, I digress. What you recount as your first exposure to porn involves magazines, hardly as stimulating as videos - if they were even close, then magazine reading would rival video watching as a recreational activity. Purchasing a magazine is again much more costly than looking up a video online. It's also much more boring - the pictures don't move, don't make sounds, they don't have someone having sex with them, they require effort and creativity (to imagine that you're having sex with them), and unlike videos, they are not literally showing you the step by step of someone else's concept of sex. There's much more left to you to figure out and much more stimulation you have to provide yourself - you aren't completely getting all of this stimulation externally.

"And the first Beta and VHS tape decks didn't come on the scene until after I was out of college. And those first ones were VERY expensive."

Right, it was very expensive, but now is free. And despite being free, the industry today makes more money than ever before. That's because there is a level of consumption as has never before been seen - particularly on the part of women. There is something different going on.

"Also....the Internet wasn't invented in the latter 1990's as some people believe....it dates back decades earlier....I had my first email account and first used the internet back in 1981.....thats no typo....Nineteen eighty one"

Even so, your average child would not have had free and easy access to the internet then and it certainly wasn't overloaded with videos the way it is now. Plus, as a computer technician, your experiences with computers are atypical.

Actually I'm not a Computer Technician by trade... I'm an Electronic Engineer who over the years has worked a broad scope of the electronics field, including a lot of stuff I'm not free to discuss, and a few things I choose not to discuss for personal reasons.(way too easy to identify me if I did), lets just say everone here is using something right now I had a hand in inventing and developing (nope.. no royalties as we were paid to do it). Though I have worked as a Computer Engineer before... (mini-mainframes) it wasn't my College Major. I've just been a computer hobbiest since the days before MS-DOS and way before WIndows existed.

And as far as learning things... what they Google today... they used to learn asking others... older brothers, friends etc... Like I said... I've seen everything that was common during this century... what evolved was the delivery method... not so much the actual content. What's out there today was available in at least the late 70's in any book store (the most common delivery method at the time).

And also... boys don't learn to masturbate from porn any more than girls do... they do that in an absence of porn... at a number of ages.(natural curiousity)... girls typically doing it way earlier than boys do. If you don't have kids yourself... talk to some mothers with girls you might be really close with about that... you might be surprised what you might hear. Assuming you don't already.

[dontknownuthin]

There have been many debates on different strings about porn. Not all men need nor want to use porn. If it is inconsistent with your values and you find it repugnant, you should terminate the relationship and find a man who shares your objections to it. There are many men who feel it's inappropriate to use porn within a committed relationship, and many men who find the objectification of women abhorrent as you do.

The other issue with your relationship is that you do not sound like you and he are sexually compatible. This is not going to improve with marriage and I think if you marry him you are going to just get increasingly hurt and lonely and disappointed with your sex life.

Finally, he seems oblivious to your feelings and values. That's a bad sign.

I think you should call off the engagement. I really don't believe "most" men in committed relationships use porn. I know many who think it's tacky and dumb, sleezy - lots of things other than sexy.

[CravenMorhead]

And also.....boys don't learn to masturbate from porn any more than girls do....they do that in an absense of porn....at a number of ages.(natural curiousity)...girls typically doing it way earlier than boys do. If you don't have kids yourself....talk to some mothers with girls you might be really close with about that....you might be surprised what you might hear. Assuming you don't already.

I remember the first time I spanked my monkey, was grade 8. I was ready "Murder on the Orient Express". Didn't get real actual porn until many years later.

I really have nothing more to say, but that I bow down to your technical skill. Being a programmer I hold people such as yourself in high esteem.

[smoothy]

I remember the first time I spanked my monkey, was grade 8. I was ready "Murder on the Orient Express". Didn't get real actual porn until many years later.

I really have nothing more to say, but that I bow down to your technical skill. Being a programmer I hold people such as yourself in high esteem.

I remember Love - American Style... when I was young and parents didn't know I was watching it... (it was still on network TV back then in the stone ages.long before syndication)

[Fr_Chuck]

I think you should call off the engagement. I really don't believe "most" men in committed relationships use porn. I know many who think it's tacky and dumb, sleezy - lots of things other than sexy.

I will agree that there are some men, but then many of them may not do it regularly but they have no real objection to it. The issue with surveys or talking to men, as we learn here, many of their own wives did not know they did it, they keep it secret, so they are not going to admit it to others that they do. Many people put on a public face, talk bad against all sorts of things but then in private often do those exact things.

I can use China here as an example, from surveys and polls, boys and girls from 14 to 21 do not really date, they never have sex. When questioned esp the girls, all are virgins and a large majority of boys are also.

But guess what age group makes up the largest number of abortions in China, yep that same 14 to 21 year old age group. Girls going into the hospital for an abortion often still claim they never had sex.

The men may not be watching it all the time, but they will also watch the swim suit girls on TV and dream about sexual things in their mind, Long before porn videos it was playboys or just using their mind while in the bath room.

Now there are various types of porn that some find bad, but some of the lighter porn can even help spice up a relationship if the parties will work with it.

Most of the issues with people and porn is that they reject it for no solid reason. They have a stigma about sex and that same issue will follow them into the bedroom and often stop them from even fully enjoying sex

[smoothy]

I think you should call off the engagement. I really don't believe "most" men in committed relationships use porn. I know many who think it's tacky and dumb, sleezy - lots of things other than sexy.

Well, I'm a man... and I know men.. very, very well... and you are so wrong about that it would make your head spin. There are actually very, very few men that don't use porn... and most of them are either Catholic Priests or just plain weird.

I don't know where you can say many... particularly since you are speaking as a woman with a very clear and admitted bias.

But then... from my experience... some women have such profound sexual inhibitions... are the cause of so many men cheating... because its impossible to remain faithful to a person who is so inhibited they are withholding much from their partner. Thank goodness they aren't the majority, but they are way more common in the USA than Europe or much of South America... (can't speak for others outside those regions as I didn't date or know enough people from other areas to make an observation).

And yes... I'm speaking as someone who who has actually known and walked out on women like that... more than a few in fact. I pity any poor soul that ended up with them hoping it would get better and didn't.

But then... its inhibited women like that who usually whine about not getting any sex after a few years because they are so painfully boring in bed... that any woman that pays attention to them looks appealing.

And yes.. it is possible to be a very pleasant woman outside the bedroom... and so horribly unadventurous and bad that some guy would pick up a scag in a bar or off the street just to have a little variety if he was married to her... or chew off his own arm to sneak out and run away without waking her up... ( a thought that actually did once cross my mind)

Hardest thing I ever had to do was tell her I wasn't interested in her. Because when she was sober she and NOT in the bedroom she was a very sweet woman... but I have never in my life before or since experienced someone so bad in bed.. that I honestly felt like I was committing necrophilia on a living corpse. I honestly understood why she was divorced at that moment.

If I had been a lot older I would have suggested she get therapy... for everyone's sake. But I was 19 at the time and she was 30... it might have been a lost cause. At the time I was just thinking about how I could get rid of her without hurting her feelings...

I really wish I knew the story... but she wouldn't tell me at the time. And that was the kiss of death to the relationship. I can't and won't have compassion or understanding for something someone won't admit to.

Incidentally... I've been married for over 20 years to a woman that I don't find boring. So they do exist... if you look long enough, and make the right choice.

I still look at porn... she has enough self esteem to know I chose to stay with her. And she doesn't get jealous of every other woman that might be the slightest bit attractive. In fact she knows what I like.. and points them out to me even before I see them... and she doesn't feel at all threatened by them.

Committed doesn't equal castrated.

[curious156]

lol well guys he just proposed to me so I guess it all paid off. Case rested. Fight amongst yourselves now. =) porn or not I got my guy, by voicing my opinion and just being me. My advice, never sell yourself short.

[talaniman]

Yes you got him. Congratulations. That's the easy part, and just the beginning. Good luck.

[smoothy]

And I also wish you both the best of luck... life together is what you both make of it at this point... good or bad.

[backpack2389]

"Most of the issues with people and porn is that they reject it for no solid reason. They have a stigma about sex and that same issue will follow them into the bedroom and often stop them from even fully enjoying sex"

This is true for some people sure, but not quite right. I know many people who object to porn simply because it's exploitive and/or think it's existence stands in contrast to what the legal system and morality deem to be upright. Such people don't have any objections to real sex, just to prostitution with cameras for desperate people who couldn't get any other job. And it's not like that's a flimsy reason for objecting.

Smoothy, every time I read one of your posts like #32 on this thread, I get the feeling you really don't like women. From what you write, I get the impression that you think the majority are sexually inhibited and dying to control a man (and make him suffer through denial of adequately exciting sex) that have cheating coming to them because they are just such awful people. And that the only good woman is one who nevers causes any incovenience or asks anything of her partner but is all about supporting his roving eye. I can't imagine you laying out this kind of role for a man in a relationship.

[talaniman]

It is for the very reason that people are different that we discourage debate between posters because it takes away from the suggestions and advice to the OP. We have other forums for that kind of debate, but not here.