[paraclete]

Oh dear, there's some heavy rationalization to arrive at that conclusion.

Tom believes in the democracy of money, the guy with the most bucks rules

[tomder55]

Clearly that is not the case . Money may or may not be a factor in deciding elections.. What I know is that you think only certain people are entitled to their 1st amendment right to petition the government individually ,or as a group.

[talaniman]

There is a case to be made that as more people become informed the electorate can make better electoral choices, but a 4 hour wait to make that choice is ridiculous. That doesn't help the participatory society at all. Nor do the behind the scene shenanigans of special interest group who actually write the state laws, or lobby the federal government to write laws that unduly shifts influence from the electorate to monied interest, while defunding the protections to the electorate.

[tomder55]

the behind the scene shenanigans of special interest group who actually write the state laws, or lobby the federal government to write laws that unduly shifts influence from the electorate

Talking about the Sierra Club again ? Or maybe the Aspen Institute;Earthjustice,Energy Action Coalition,Green For All,a group was created by Van Jones to lobby for federal climate, energy, and economic policy initiatives. they all have a major fingerprint on most of the environmental laws

Or maybe you are talking about the AMA ,the NEA ,AFT ,AARP ,ABA ,ACLU ,the Center for American Progress ,Center for Reproductive Rights , or any of the 100s of similarly minded lib advocacy groups that routinely lobby and write progressive legislation.

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

or any of the 100s of similarly minded lib advocacy groups that routinely lobby and write progressive legislation.

One of the reasons we find ourselves where we are, is that you PRETEND right wing groups like ALEC don't DO the same thing.

Excon

[cdad]

Hello again, tom:

One of the reasons we find ourselves where we are, is that you PRETEND right wing groups like ALEC don't DO the exact same thing.

excon

In all the alphabit soup that was mentioned the biggest one not mentioned in the news and headlines today is the NRA. Both sides have advocacy groups. The 2 major problems I see with the way politics are being run is an uninformed class of voters and a media that refuses to follow up on issues. (as in researching and reporting the truth in unbiased fashion.)

[tomder55]

Hello again, tom:

One of the reasons we find ourselves where we are, is that you PRETEND right wing groups like ALEC don't DO the exact same thing.

excon

I'm not pretending that at all. I think it's perfectly acceptable unless there is corruption by the elected class. The laws if enforced cover that contingency . It's you that complains about money's influence.. but only when there is right wing or corporate advocacy .

[Tuttyd]

clearly that is not the case . Money may or may not be a factor in deciding elections .. What I know is that you think only certain people are entitled to their 1st amendment right to petition the government individually ,or as a group.

If it is clearly not the case then why have you said that money could or could not be a factor?

Edit

Tut

[Tuttyd]

Hello again, tom:

One of the reasons we find ourselves where we are, is that you PRETEND right wing groups like ALEC don't DO the exact same thing.

excon

The difference here Ex is that ALEC actually drafts the legislation to be rubber stamped. The process is made easy when you have a majority of politicians who are also a members of ALEC.

We can talk about non- participatory democracy, but when the politicians don't participate you have real problems.Who do you think drafted the voter I.D. laws?

[talaniman]

The difference here Ex is that ALEC actually drafts the legislation to be rubber stamped. The process is made easy when you have a majority of politicians who are also a members of ALEC.

We can talk about non- participatory democracy, but when the politicians don't participate you have real problems.Who do you think drafted the voter I.D. laws?

And why??

[Tuttyd]

And why????

Basically, because what you will eventually end up with is an hierarchical system of decision makers who are devors where by the only role of voting will be to decide who the power brokers are going to be. In other words, voting will be nothing more than deciding which faction of the oligarchy will make the decisions.

That's the short answer.

[tomder55]

The difference here Ex is that ALEC actually drafts the legislation to be rubber stamped.

and as I said ,there is hardly an environmental law in the country that doesn't have Sierra Club's finger prints all over it . You want to know why Social Security is so hard to reform ? Because AARP uses membership fees to lobby Congress. That's the way the game is played. The only changes is which groups were excluded by various attempts at Federal Election "reform."

[Wondergirl]

Basically, because what you will eventually end up with is an hierarchical system of decision makers who are devors where by the only role of voting will be to decide who the power brokers are going to be. In other words, voting will be nothing more than deciding which faction of the oligarchy will make the decisions.

That's the short answer.

And the hoi polloi and the rest of the huddled masses?

[Tuttyd]

and as I said ,there is hardly an environmental law in the country that doesn't have Sierra Club's finger prints all over it . You want to know why Social Security is so hard to reform ? Because AARP uses membership fees to lobby Congress. That's the way the game is played. The only changes is which groups were excluded by various attempts at Federal Election "reform."

I see. So the Sierra Club, unions AARP etc are all members of the one umbrella organization, to which politicians are also members of said umbrella organization.

Is this what you are trying to tell me Tom?

[excon]

Hello TUT:

Is this what you are trying to tell me Tom.

No. What he's trying to tell you is that when the right wing does it, it's cool. When the left does it, it's not.

Excon

[tomder55]

No ,what I said often is that it's cool when BOTH sides do it.

[Tuttyd]

no ,what I said often is that it's cool when BOTH sides do it.

Well, if that's the case then they need to organize themselves in that direction because the other side has already rationalized that process.

[tomder55]

Well Tut .I think you are way too smart to believe that thousand page bills written in legalize has the authorship of the legislator that introduces it.

I go by the 1st amendment ;that says ,Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom... to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. That is what advocacy and lobby groups do .

[Tuttyd]

well Tut .I think you are way too smart to believe that thousand page bills written in legalize has the authorship of the legislator that introduces it.

That would depend on the resources available and the ability to mobilize resources.

I go by the 1st amendment ;that says ,Congress shall make no law....abridging the freedom ... to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. That is what advocacy and lobby groups do .

Well Tom, I am sure many here, including Steve, who want the same thing to be true when it comes to freedom of religion.

You and I are smart enough to know that in this day and age the Constitution is not standing as iconic piece of architecture. Perhaps it should but it doesn't.

Over the years SCOTUS has seen to that. They keep chipping away at the edifice. Give it time they will get to the redressing of grievances bit.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again,

Freshman Tea Party senator Cruz (Texas) is one of the three senators who voted AGAINST confirming John Kerry as Secretary of State...

This guy is chicken hawk. Chicken hawks run away from serving in the military, but have strong criticisms for those people who don't run away. This particular chicken hawk, speaking of Chuck Hagel and John Kerry, said "Both are less than ardent fans of the US military".

Between them, they have 5 purple hearts... Cruz has his d!ck. As a person who didn't run away either, I'm offended.

excon

By the way, you've been awfully quiet about this since Hagel showed his utter incompetence to head our military. The' highlights' in case you missed them..





No wonder former press secretary Gibbs said, “The disconcerting thing, obviously, for anybody that watched it was he seemed unimpressive and unprepared on the questions that, quite frankly, he knew was coming.”

But hey, like Obamacare and having to pass it before knowing what was in it I guess we should confirm Hagel so he can learn admin policies and how to run the military.