[paraclete]

The intervention in Mali is growing, gaining momentum as a "coalition of the willing" forms without waiting for the UN, but there have been many conflicts in Africa that have raged while everyone stood by. Somalia comes to mind, Sudan, Congo, Angola

France, Germany and Italy: Terrorists in Mali must go - CNN.com

What makes the difference in Mali? Is it just the mention of Al Qaeda? Is it the,possibility they might be successful in overthrowing an established government, or is it that this has the potential to broaden. Already the Islamists have retaliated by attacking an Algerian oil installation. Is the oil and gas what is really been protected?

Reading between the lines the US now has an excuse to become involved as american nationals have ben kidnapped

http://www.news.com.au/world/al-qaed...-1226555513214

[tomder55]

Remember in the 3rd debate when Romney brought up Mali as a casualty of the Arab Spring ?

"With the Arab Spring, came a great deal of hope that there would be a change towards more moderation, and opportunity for greater participation on the part of women in public life, and in economic life in the Middle East. But instead, we've seen in nation after nation, a number of disturbing events. Of course we see in Syria, 30,000 civilians having been killed by the military there. We see in -- in Libya, an attack apparently by, I think we know now, by terrorists of some kind against -- against our people there, four people dead.
Our hearts and -- and minds go out to them. Mali has been taken over, the northern part of Mali by Al Qaeda type individuals."
Transcript And Audio: Third Presidential Debate : NPR

The low information voters had a field day on that one as their favorite umm "comics".. poked fun at Romney's expense.

https://twitter.com/billmaher/status/260549446079750144

But Romney was receiving the same security briefings as Emperor Zero ,and he knew that it was becoming a big issue as half the country was over run by AQ jihadists. Now it appears that the French are mobilizing to intervene and perhaps the plan is for us to "lead from behind"... as in our actions in Libya ,that helped precipitate the crisis . Lets hope this isn't Dien Bien Phu redux .France is already turning to the US for logistical support.

[paraclete]

None of this answers my questions. Let's try this one. The presence of al qaeda in Afghanistan was sufficient excuse for invasion, the presence of al qaeda in Yemen was sufficient excuse for covert operations and assassinations, but the presence of al quada in North Africa is largely ignored even in the face of provocation in Libya.

France hasn't proven to be a strong military power and lost many battles including Algeria, Vietnam but it is flexing its colonial muscles again, perhaps chasing past glories, perhaps boyied up by success of intervention in Libya, perhaps it has a sense of paternalistic furvour towards past colonies, perhaps just keeping attention off internal issues

America has vacated the international peace keeping role, this is not a bad thing, but will they mount a rescue for american hostages in aAlgeria

[tomder55]

America has vacated the international peace keeping role, this is not a bad thing, but will they mount a rescue for american hostages in aAlgeria

Doubt it ,Zero didn't even officially authorize the rescue of the hostages from the Maersk Alabama in 2009. The Seals took the initiative on their own and Zero took the credit. Same in Benghazi. The whole attack was watched live in the White House ;and they didn't do a d+mn thing to help . He is untrustworthy .

Don't forget... “Osama bin Laden is dead and General Motors is alive”. No need to move against them anymore . There are things to screw up at home . But he may declare Mali a no gun zone.

What the Algeria attack again demonstrates is that borders unenforced are meaningless lines on a map.

[paraclete]

. But he may declare Mali a no gun zone.

What the Algeria attack again demonstrates is that borders unenforced are meaningless lines on a map.

More meaningless words then, he needs to do that at home before he preaches righteousness to others.


Yes I hear there are other meaningless lines on a map of North America

[paraclete]

It is a shame that BO didn't authorise a rescue, since american forces have a better record for rescuing hostages safely than do other militaries

[tomder55]

He wouldn't rescue his... ummm... "consulate " staff in Benghazi.. why would he bother rescuing a bunch of BP workers ? You see the responses to this posting ? There has been a collective yawn in this country over this outrage.But if this had happened under Bush's watch...

[paraclete]

I get the idea the whole place is a collective yawn... like it was all too hard, what with the election and the fiscal cliff and it is winter after all, see you after groundhog day

[tomder55]

No the issue is that the press in this country is Emperor Zero's poodle.

[paraclete]

Rupert is noone's poodle, I suspect it is the other way around

[tomder55]

Lol suddenly he is a paragon of honest unscrupulous journalism .
I've never heard that argued here before !

[tomder55]

America has vacated the international peace keeping role, this is not a bad thing, but will they mount a rescue for american hostages in aAlgeria

The answer of course was no. Not even sure if Zero has made public comment on this yet.
The Algerians did their best. But in reality their task was hard. If the world is in shock it is because the hegemon made it look so easy in the past .For seventy years the seas have remained open to navigation;and planes crisscross the skies with impunity. Oh you'll miss us when we are gone.

[paraclete]

Don't float away with that big head Tom there are others in the world

[tomder55]

All I'm saying is that you see what happens when Beau Geste is depended on to do the necessary dirty work .They are begging around the Western world to find sufficient transport planes for their 'Legionnaires' .

[paraclete]

Well that's what happens when empire has departed, but as I said before they are stitching together a coalition of the willing and perhaps the spearhead will be African, which is as it should be, they have more to loose, while the French only have oil and gas to loose. Beau Geste was representative of valiant soldiers and a past era. They are not fighting fledgling nationalist movements now.

The Nigerians certainly have a lot to loose, if Mali goes they will have a full blown islamist terrorist organisation to add to their troubles

[talaniman]

Extremists and terrorists, and criminals thrive where there is weak government, and poverty, ignorance and low education. Be it in the US, or a third world country.

[tomder55]

They are not fighting fledgling nationalist movements now.

Depends on your perspective . I say that jihadistan is very much a political movement that has eyes on uniting the various tribes of the ummah under a single governing authority. That has been the goal since the days of Mohammed ;and later the Ottomans .That makes the French overmatched .

[tomder55]

Harry: All right, pop quiz: The airport. Gunman with one hostage, he's using her for cover, he's almost to the plane. You're a hundred feet away.

Harry: Jack?

Jack: Shoot the hostage.

Harry: What?

Jack: Take her out of the equation. Go for the good wound and he can't get to the plane with her. Clear shot.

Harry: You are deeply nuts, you know that? “Shoot the hostage”… jeez…

Speed (1994) - Memorable quotes


Appears that was the battle plan the Algerians used today. I don't necessarily think that is the worse plan of attack . It is in fact the doctrine that Russia has used in the past . It's cold hearted . But if the attackers know that they can't be spared by taking human shields ;they are less likely to take them. (see the Moscow Theatre siege of 2002 ) .

When we left the compound, there was shooting all around,” Andrada said, as Algerian helicopters attacked with guns and missiles. “I closed my eyes. We were going around in the desert. To me, I left it all to fate

Algeria launches 'final assault' to end bloody hostage situation, at least 23 hostages, 32 Islamic militants dead - NY Daily News

With the Algerian 'rescue ' attempts in the last 2 days ,it appears that the idea of creating a coalition of the willing has been dealt a fatal blow ,according to the Compost .

Algeria's unilateral decision to attack kidnappers at a natural gas plant — while shunning outside help, imposing a virtual information blackout and disregarding international pleas for caution — has dampened hopes that it might cooperate militarily in Mali, U.S. officials said. The crisis has strained ties between Algiers and Washington and increased doubts about whether Algeria can be relied upon to work regionally to dismantle al-Qaeda's franchise in North Africa.

“The result is that the U.S. will have squandered six to eight months of diplomacy for how it wants to deal with Mali,” said Geoff D. Porter, an independent North African security analyst. “At least it will have been squandered in the sense that the Algerians will likely double down on their recalcitrance to get involved. They've already put themselves in a fortress-like state.”

Algerian stance spoils U.S. strategy for region - The Washington Post

Because it was Algerian troops I expect there will not be a collective world outrage over the heavy handed response. But when American troops use anything but a white glove approach they face world wide condemnation. Welcome to the post Pax American world .

[paraclete]

Tom you tout yourselves as being a professional highly trained military, therefore a higher standard is expected, no one expects the Algerians to be as expert, and it is their country, so it is their responsibility. But when you went in to extract OBL you used the same tactics, anyone with a weapon got killed but not everyone got killed.

I think it is excellent that the Algerians sent the message that they are not negotiating with terrorists, there is a cost to that

[tomder55]

Like I said ; I don't necessarily think that is the worse plan of attack . It was pretty well understood when I was in the ME before Carter's reign that if we became hostages we could kiss our a$$ goodbye .