[Wondergirl]

I consider Haiti as a case study in learned helplessness.

[tomder55]

Yes a textbook case. But frankly there have been times I've felt this area was the same. People crying in desperation because the lights went out a few days ,or even worse ,their cable or cell service out... ;or people hanging out in their homes for days waiting for the nanny state to come and clean the streets after a blizzard. I spoke of neighborhoods organizing clean ups before city sanitation came .But unfortunately that may be the exception and not the rule .
It goes back to the thinking that everything is of the public commons instead of the assumption of private ownership .

For years I lived in a mixed community that had a robust Haitian population .I have to say that the behavior of the general population is not inherent in the Haitian immigrant. They are as hard working as any group I've seen in this country . I think government dependency saps the energy out of people ;and it doubles down on a population that has lived under the jackboot of tyranny for so long that they resign to that fate.

[Wondergirl]

I totally agree, Tom, and see that in my own family (in-laws) -- a niece who was diagnosed years ago as ADHD (not sure I agree, was a major parenting problem going on). She has knocked herself out so that she doesn't ever have to produce, except for producing two children from two different fathers.

There should definitely be a limit to handouts without personal responsibility. Even in the beginning, supervised volunteer/community service should be part of the deal with roadsides being cleaned up, public libraries being cleaned beyond the custodian staffs' contract (yes, book shelves get very dusty, plants need repotting, furniture needs wiping down, soiled and written-in books need cleaning -- I coordinated court-ordered community service for years). I know the need is there, and the workers are there too. So let's connect them.

[speechlesstx]

I totally agree, Tom, and see that in my own family (in-laws) -- a niece who was diagnosed years ago as ADHD (not sure I agree, was a major parenting problem going on). She has knocked herself out so that she doesn't ever have to produce, except for producing two children from two different fathers.

There should definitely be a limit to handouts without personal responsibility. Even in the beginning, supervised volunteer/community service should be part of the deal with roadsides being cleaned up, public libraries being cleaned beyond the custodian staffs' contract (yes, book shelves get very dusty, plants need repotting, furniture needs wiping down, soiled and written-in books need cleaning -- I coordinated court-ordered community service for years). I know the need is there, and the workers are there too. So let's connect them.

Wow, we actually agree. If I had said that I'd get hammered.

[Wondergirl]

Wow, we actually agree. If I had said that I'd get hammered.

I would never hammer you for talking about personal responsibility. The trick is that someone official has to do the connecting and overseeing. In court-ordered community service, the sentence is handed down by a judge. A PO masterminded the community service assignment, connected to me at a work site, and I trained and oversaw the offender at the work site, then reported back to the PO who reported to the judge. It worked real well.

So how can we do that as a nation?

[speechlesstx]

How? If you're able, you contribute something meaningful to get government dollars, period. No show, no dough. I can think of all kind of things around here that need to be done. The state seems to have abandoned any pretense of maintaining the landscape along interstates, we have enough mowing, pruning, trimming and trash collecting to keep some people busy. Libraries and other government buildings, community centers, homeless shelters, schools all can use some help I'm sure.

[Wondergirl]

How? If you're able, you contribute something meaningful to get government dollars, period. No show, no dough. I can think of all kind of things around here that need to be done. The state seems to have abandoned any pretense of maintaining the landscape along interstates, we have enough mowing, pruning, trimming and trash collecting to keep some people busy. Libraries and other government buildings, community centers, homeless shelters, schools all can use some help I'm sure.

Therefore, requirements need to be installed and guidelines written.

[tomder55]

The public unions would never permit the government to do that .

[Wondergirl]

the public unions would never permit the government to do that .

Why not? It wouldn't be taking their workers.

[tomder55]

No ,it would be taking their jobs.

[Wondergirl]

no ,it would be taking their jobs.

They don't have any.

[tomder55]

What ? Around here every sanitation worker ,and every other public job is unionized.

[Wondergirl]

What ? Around here every sanitation worker ,and every other public job is unionized.

I thought we were talking about the unemployed who are looking for government handouts. I learned from supervising community service workers that many jobs go undone (and are spit upon) by unionized custodians.

[paraclete]

Demarcation, no unionised worker does work reserved for others, after all the lesser mortals must do something

[speechlesstx]

FYI all of you who just can't wait to raise taxes on "rich" people to cheer people up, since Gordon Brown raised taxes on the wealthy in the UK it has "cost the UK £7 billion in lost tax revenue."

Go ahead, stick it to the rich. It won't solve anything and probably will cost the government revenue but at least it'll cheer you up a bit.

[paraclete]

What does that prove, speech, the wealthy are already using tax havens. British tax rates have always been draconian and they have convenient places to go to, like Luxemborg. Someone has missed the point here, you don't need an increase in the top rate on income because this tax is ineffective, you need an increased tax on Capital Gains, Interest and Dividends, that's where the rich derive their income

[speechlesstx]

What does it prove? Just a warning...

[paraclete]

It proves that capital chases tax havens once it has an assured income stream, rates are incidental, the idea is to pluck the goose with a minimum of honking

[speechlesstx]

And our campaigner-in-chief thinks raising rates on anyone making over 250k is the answer. Sorry, it's just feel-good window dressing, a morale booster as the namesake of Obama's plan said. I won't raise much if any revenue and those who can will just find a way around it.

The Dems like to pretend the wealthy are all fat cat Republicans even though the majority of the wealthiest in Congress themselves are Democrats. You think wealthy Democrats aren't going to look after their own self-interest?

[tomder55]

But it is telling when the progressives looks at taxes as "plucking a goose" .