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saffle · Mar 6, 2007, 09:57 AM

Got a Kohler wallmounted toilet that frequently comes on to fill tank slightly.
I changed the plastic ball flush valve that closes the fill spout to the bowl below and cleaned the rim of that spout very well, this has been my experience works usually, but not now.
To change the whole flush valve assembly I have to get to the nut under the tank. Got three nuts, the third is not accessible and so it looks like I have to unbolt the whole toilet from the wall. These toilets are no longer available nor are there parts. So I don't want to dissassemble the toilet that much - to find any problem that will prevent me from putting it back - only months before I move out...
Am I missing someying simple here ?
I've checked the slack in the chain an other possible issues like alignment and there are no obvious nicks in the rim on the spot...

nmwirez · Mar 6, 2007, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by saffle

Got a Kohler wallmounted toilet that frequently comes on to fill tank slightly.
I changed the plastic ball flush valve that closes the fill spout to the bowl below and cleaned the rim of that spout very well, this has been my experience works usually, but not now.
To change the whole flush valve assembly I have to get to the nut under the tank. Got three nuts, the third is not accessible and so it looks like i have to unbolt the whole toilet from the wall. These toilets are no longer available nor are there parts. So i dont want to dissassemble the toilet that much - to find any problem that will prevent me from putting it back - only months before I move out....
Am I missing someying simple here ?
I've checked the slack in the chain an other possible issues like alignment and there are no obvious nicks in the rim on the spot....

At it again? Saffle,

I am not familiar with the Kohler you are concerned about. Obviously this is not a commercial model if you have access to the tank. Depending on the type of ballcock valve model Kohler uses, it may be disassembled and the center valve can be replaced. I am not sure what is in there so you are on your own. Where are all my professional buddies when you need them. Plumbers do not scare off easy. :) nm

saffle · Mar 6, 2007, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by nmwirez

At it again? Saffle,

I am not familiar with the Kohler you are concerned about. Obviously this is not a commercial model if you have access to the tank. Depending on the type of ballcock valve model Kohler uses, it may be disassembled and the center valve can be replaced. nm

Hopefully I haven't exceeded my quota. Smaller jobs like this it is near impossible to get a professional for in New York City or my other location out on Long Island. They prefer big projects. I don't blame them - there are plenty projects available.
The stamp inside the tank is K4509 and the flush valve looks standard, but to get to the nut I'd have to get under the tank and there is no access to third bolt in the back holding the tank, so I suspect I have to unbolt the whole unit from the wall and I don't want to go there without knowing the conscequences. I've searched plumbing supply and the web and it's an old model I can find no parts for. So I just wondered if anyone had a suggestion either how to treat the seat or know what I'd find if unbolting the whole thing...

nmwirez · Mar 6, 2007, 12:50 PM

I believe I understand but I will ask again. The discussion is about the ballcock valve and definitely not the flapper valve. Is the ballcock assembly the original ball float type that shuts off the supply when the float level gets up to its full waterline? If so, that whole top can be removed from the vertical flow tube and replaced. Again, it depends on brand and age. I think we need to get the big dogs in on this one. I am over my head without a picture. :confused: nm

saffle · Mar 6, 2007, 01:38 PM

Fliush valve aka flapper valve is the problem - the thingy that lets the acumuated water drain into the toilet bowl to flush. Right now it leaks slowly. The flapper itslef was replaced and the seat scoured clean, but it still leaks, so that the fill valve engages periodically to refill the small amount that is vacated. The fill valve is accessible but the problematic flush valve / flapper valve / overfill tube assemby is not accessible. Two bolts are sticking out under the toilet, but the third bolt that holds the tank is inside the lower assembly that bolts to the wall - the thought of removing the whole toilet scares me, since I have no way to fix anything that I might find or break, since this model is long ago discontinued...

speedball1 · Mar 6, 2007, 01:49 PM

Let's come together on terms. A flush valve = the overflow tube and the seat the flush ball, (flapper) seats on. A ballcock is what fills the tank.
All you did was to change the flush ball? When I'm stumped on a callback the first thing I do is to go back over what I've done before. This should be simple to figure out. Unless you have the tank level set a tad above the overflow tube the water's seeping past the flush valve into the bowl. This can happen, (1) if the flush ball/flapper is letting water seep past it due to a faulty seat, misadjusted linkage or a bad flush ball/flapper. (2) the tank seal between the flush valve and the tank is faulty allowing water to seep past into the bowl. Or(3) the overflow tube's leaking water at the base. Water can only seep out of the tank at one place and that's the flush valve. What have you missed? Regards, Tom

nmwirez · Mar 6, 2007, 01:52 PM

Thanks for clearing that up. Knowing the accessibilty that you can replace the flapper is a good thing... MStewart... :D

Can you look in and actually see the flapper interfacing toilet rim that you cleaned and see if there is some severe scoring? There are two types of flappers that can be installed after market. One is a soft silicone rubber flapper that has a tendency to not line up properly in the seat when it closes and has tendency to float off center. The other costs a little more, is of more rigid construction with positive alignment. Hopefully finding out this flapper anomaly may be the best way to solve the problem. Dang, is this becoming our day jobs?. :D nm

nmwirez · Mar 6, 2007, 01:59 PM

Hi Tom,
Thanks for clearing up the difference between the flapper and the ballcock supply valve. I did not see your answer while I was putting in an additional reply possible solution. Nm, rural grunt :)

ballengerb1 · Mar 6, 2007, 02:26 PM

You mentioned you were moving out in months, is this a rental unit? If so don't do your own repairs, call your landlord.

doug238 · Mar 6, 2007, 05:14 PM

[grinz]
Tom, we have been schooled to not use the word 'ballcock'. It is uncomfortable for the ladies to hear. We now use the words 'fill valve'.
On another note, kissler claims to have or can get or can make any part. I have had tremendous success with them on long forgotten parts. I even got a wall hung pink crane toilet that was obsolete one time. I was in orlando and my boss would not let me touch it, but I showed the homeowner where to get it and he did. Kissler & Co., Inc.

saffle · Mar 18, 2007, 06:44 PM

... not resolved yet...
I went back over what I've done as you suggested and checked your three points.
Tank is solidly attached. I put on a newer flapper valve of good quality and it looks identical in shape to the previous old valve. Then I put food dye in the tank. Started below the flapper valve. No bleed into the bowl, so I'd say that seal is OK,Then I filled the tank 3/4 to fill line and put dye in the overflow - which of course bled through to the bowl, but not into the tank. Then I put dye in the tank - a slight trickle can be heard and the dye gets through to the bowl...
The seat is clean, the ball is new, the alignment is set and seems perfect...
Water to the fill line below the opening of the overflow tube
So I don't know what else to try...
I saw a Korky Flush Valve Repair Kit (includes Korky Plus flapper, replacement flush valve seat and silicone sealant) - can this work? Goes it go on top of old seat or do I tear it off...

Again - I'd replace the whole asembly, but third bolt to tank is only accessible if I unmount the toiloet from the wall and that seems like asking for trouble - discontinued model - no parts...

iamgrowler · Mar 18, 2007, 07:13 PM

If you still have water trickling in after all that, then it sounds like water is leaking past the Douglas valve.

The Douglas Valve is the assembly that includes the flapper and the overflow, by the way.

saffle · Mar 18, 2007, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by iamgrowler

If you still have water trickling in after all that, then it sounds like water is leaking past the Douglas valve.

The Douglas Valve is the assembly that includes the flapper and the overflow, btw.

Started below the flapper valve with dye. No bleed into the bowl, so I'd say that seal is OK,
Unless the larger amnount of water in the tank produces more pressure and then it leaks...
My feeling is that it's the flapper valve or the seat, Can the seat be rerplaced using something like a Korky Flush Valve Repair Kit (includes Korky Plus flapper, replacement flush valve seat and silicone sealant)??

iamgrowler · Mar 18, 2007, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by saffle

Started below the flapper valve with dye. No bleed into the bowl, so i'd say that seal is ok,
unless the larger amnount of water in the tank produces more pressure and then it leaks....
My feeling is that it's the flapper valve or the seat, Can the seat be rerplaced using something like a Korky Flush Valve Repair Kit (includes Korky Plus flapper, replacement flush valve seat and silicone sealant) ????

I'd certainly give it a whirl, just to exhaust all other options, but ultimately you need to steel yourself for the inevitable pain in the tukas of pulling the toilet from the wall to access that hard to get at bolt.

If it comes to this -- After installing a new Douglas valve, set the tank up on a five gallon bucket, fill the tank with water and let it sit overnight to be sure the new valve is seated and sealed properly.

nmwirez · Mar 19, 2007, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by saffle

Started below the flapper valve with dye. No bleed into the bowl, so i'd say that seal is ok,
unless the larger amnount of water in the tank produces more pressure and then it leaks....
My feeling is that it's the flapper valve or the seat, Can the seat be rerplaced using something like a Korky Flush Valve Repair Kit (includes Korky Plus flapper, replacement flush valve seat and silicone sealant) ????

Hi Saffle,

This is your day job.:D Just one note... Make sure that surfaces that get the silicone rubber are dry. Silicone rubber cures hygroscopically (water) and will not stick to wet or moist surfaces. Nm