[paraclete]

yeah a field mouse is different from a house mouse .

Yes Tom but a rat is always recognisable

[TUT317]

yeah a field mouse is different from a house mouse .

I don't mind analogies, but in the end you can never prove anything by analogy.

Of course you can argue that field mice are house mice. It just a case of the environment determining the name.

However, I don't know any mice; field or other wise that manufactures a tyranny.

In the end you are saying that despite the difference you have pointed out there is no difference.

Tut

[tomder55]

It's the difference between being dropped into boiling water or being dropped into tepid water that has a burner bringing it up to boiling temp.
In Tocqueville's thinking ;once the hope is removed by the soft tyranny, then the democratic institution collapses,to be replaced by the fascist state . Dictators are usually installed by a willing populace .
Citizens vote for those politicians who promise to use the state to give them whatever they want. The political-class delivers, so long as citizens do whatever it says is necessary to provide for everyone's desires. The “softness” of this despotism consists of people's voluntary surrender of their liberty and their tendency to look habitually to the state for their needs
Old Europe's New Despotism | Acton Institute

[TUT317]

It's the difference between being dropped into boiling water or being dropped into tepid water that has a burner bringing it up to boiling temp.
In Tocqueville's thinking ;once the hope is removed by the soft tyranny, then the democratic institution collapses,to be replaced by the fascist state . Dictators are usually installed by a willing populace .
Citizens vote for those politicians who promise to use the state to give them whatever they want. The political-class delivers, so long as citizens do whatever it says is necessary to provide for everyone's desires. The “softness” of this despotism consists of people's voluntary surrender of their liberty and their tendency to look habitually to the state for their needs
Old Europe's New Despotism | Acton Institute

For the purposes of this exercise I have already stated that I don't necessarily disagree with the claim that socialism is soft tyranny.

Dictatorships have been in the past, more often than not, been installed by a willing population. This may well be true in the future, but that isn't addressing my key point.

That point being that fascism is really socialism despite the differences.

You would need to address this claim before you can use the words, 'fascist state' in any meaningful way. You would also need to address this point before we can discuss the above.

Tut

[tomder55]

That point being that fascism is really socialism despite the differences.

There is no significant difference in anything but method of enforcement . I'm willing to accept Marx's definition that socialism is a transition step toward his utopian vision. The only significant difference is that communist /socialism moves for complete public ownership of the economy where fascist/socialism leaves a veneer of private ownership over total state control. What socialism, fascism have in common is an assumption that central planners need to take decisions out of the hands of the people, and impose those decisions by government fiat.

I really don't understand the problem understanding this . In the 1920s when fascism was a new model it was embraced by the socialists . It was only after it fell out of favor that it was rebranded as a right wing model.

[paraclete]

You know Tom I wonder what label you would stick on our economy and government structure

Would you see it as socialist? Democratic? Fascist?

We have publicly owned enterprises, utilities coexisting with privately owned enterprise, is this a veneer hiding state control? We have states delivering hospitals, education along side private institutions, is this a veneer hiding state control? We have state police forces, gun control, are we a fascist state? National military, are we a fascist state?

[TUT317]

There is no significant difference in anything but method of enforcement . I'm willing to accept Marx's definition that socialism is a transition step toward his utopian vision. The only significant difference is that communist /socialism moves for complete public ownership of the economy where fascist/socialism leaves a veneer of private ownership over total state control. What socialism, fascism have in common is an assumption that central planners need to take decisions out of the hands of the people, and impose those decisions by government fiat.

Just a list of a few differences off the top of my head

Fascism rejects a dialectical model of how history will unfold. In other words, it rejects Marx and his materialistic conception of history.

Fascism rejects the alienation explanation for the rise of religion.

Fascism rejects the idea that there is any sort of class struggle.

Fascism rejects any idea of replacing capitalism with a working class dictatorship.

Fascism stresses the need for the private ownership of the means of production.

Fascism enacted anti-Semitic legislation.

Other than those important differences they are pretty much the same.

I really don't understand the problem understanding this . In the 1920s when fascism was a new model it was embraced by the socialists . It was only after it fell out of favor that it was rebranded as a right wing model.

Tom, you just provided the basis for rejecting your hypothesis.

Fascism did embrace socialism early on but quickly rejected it for the reason I have outlined above. Fascism became very much opposed to the ideas of Marx.

Tut

[paraclete]

Fascism stresses the need for the private ownership of the means of production.


Tom, you just provided the basis for rejecting your hypothesis.

Fascism became very much opposed to the ideas of Marx.

What does this say about american capitalism is it the same as fascism?

I have seen documentaries of americans dealing with strikes and civil rights, difficult to tell the difference between their response and fascism

[TUT317]

Glad you pointed this out because I need to clarify that point. By " ..stressing the private ownership of the means of production" I should have pointed out that Mussolini's policy was to reject any role of the bourgeoisie had in the formation of the state.

When it came to actual practice, ideology was put aside for the financial and political benefits this class afford Mussolini. It would be an example of the difference between policy and how a policy is actually carried out. There is a similarity in the rejection of the middle class, but that is where the similarity ends.

So, yes- I should have stated that a lot better than I did.

Tut

[speechlesstx]

The Daily Show visited the Dems party to see how inclusive they are. Must see TV.

[paraclete]

The Daily Show visited the Dems party to see how inclusive they are. Must see tv.

Can't see this Speech your censors don't want the news getting out

[TUT317]

Can't see this Speech your censors don't want the news getting out

Probably best we don't see it.

[speechlesstx]

Can't see this Speech your censors don't want the news getting out

I don't have censors.

[NeedKarma]

I don't have censors.

In this case it's the US media company that does. They have geo-restricted the content.

[speechlesstx]

Probably best we don't see it.

And why would that be?

[talaniman]

Because its about lefties talking about right wing tea party types who they blame for the problems in the country.You know like you righties blame liberals, but in reverse.

[speechlesstx]

Because its about lefties talking about right wing tea party types who they blame for the problems in the country.You know like you righties blame liberals, but in reverse.

So you didn't watch it either.

[talaniman]

Yeah I did. What's your point? Should I denounce their intolerance for yours? Or excuse yours? Which is it?

[speechlesstx]

I'm not the hypocrite. If I practiced tolerance the way Democrat convention attendees did we wouldn't be in the same fantasy leagues. Unlike libs I welcome differences, encourage debate, fight FOR your first amendment rights instead of against them and can make the distinction between hating a policy and hating a person.

[talaniman]

So this sampling is what all libs are like?