[tomder55]

an the Republicans will never tire of blaming someoneelse for their lack of performance

What is being challenged is nothing less than the most basic premise of the politics of the centre ground: that you can have free market economics and a democratic socialist welfare system at the same time. The magic formula in which the wealth produced by the market economy is redistributed by the state – from those who produce it to those whom the government believes deserve it – has gone bust. The crash of 2008 exposed a devastating truth that went much deeper than the discovery of a generation of delinquent bankers, or a transitory property bubble. It has become apparent to anyone with a grip on economic reality that free markets simply cannot produce enough wealth to support the sort of universal entitlement programmes which the populations of democratic countries have been led to expect. The fantasy may be sustained for a while by the relentless production of phoney money to fund benefits and job-creation projects, until the economy is turned into a meaningless internal recycling mechanism in the style of the old Soviet Union. ...

Contrary to what many know-nothing British observers seem to think, the message coming out of Tampa was not Tea Party extremism. It was just a reassertion of the basic values of American political culture: self-determination, individual aspiration and genuine community, as opposed to belief in the state as the fount of all social virtue. Romney caught this rather nicely in his acceptance speech, with the comment that the US was built on the idea of “a system that is dedicated to creating tomorrow’s prosperity rather than trying to redistribute today’s.” Or as Marco Rubio put it in his speech, Obama is “trying ideas that people came to America to get away from”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/9513687/We-should-tune-in-to-the-Romney-and-Ryan-show.html

[paraclete]

Tom My nation gives the lie to your error, while you languish we prosper, because we don't ignore age old premises, to look after the poor, to treat people fairly and pay a fair wage. We don't harbour the values of the Soviet Union but something far older than that. You would do well to learn from us, capitalism must be bridled. The american values you aspire are those of treading down the poor, reinstituting the very slavery you claim you did away with. Slavery has never left america Tom, only my nation is a nation instituted without slavery, carrying the values of a population that has never known the taint of slavery.

So yes I see a Congress that has been emasculated by the values you hold true

[TUT317]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/9513687/We-should-tune-in-to-the-Romney-and-Ryan-show.html

Does this statement include ALL the unproductive labour that has given rise to these problems?

The equally real uses of entitlement found at the top end of the socio-economic spectrum.

[tomder55]

People keep asking me that and I keep repeating the same answer that no one wants to hear because it doesn't comport to their predisposition of my view .

[NeedKarma]

People keep asking me that and I keep repeating the same answer that no one wants to hear because it doesn't comport to their predisposition of my view .

That's true for pretty much anyone that posts political stuff in Current Events - no one has ever changed their views.

[tomder55]

Yes ,so when people keep on bringing up 'welfare for the rich ',special favors for the rich ,special deductions in the tax code for the rich ,subsidies for business ,or any other manifestation of that concept ,they continue to assume it is something I favor even though I have written against it a number of times

[TUT317]

People keep asking me that and I keep repeating the same answer that no one wants to hear because it doesn't comport to their predisposition of my view .

I do keep mental notes of what other people have said in the past. I was addressing the quote provided.

I wonder if the person/people who came up with this quote understand the difference; or even understand there is a difference? I know you do.

[paraclete]

People keep asking me that and I keep repeating the same answer that no one wants to hear because it doesn't comport to their predisposition of my view .

The reason I talk to myself is because I’m the only one whose answers I accept.”

...

[talaniman]

yes ,so when people keep on bringing up 'welfare for the rich ',special favors for the rich ,special deductions in the tax code for the rich ,subsidies for business ,or any other manifestation of that concept ,they continue to assume it is something I favor even though I have written against it a number of times

So why vote for those that seek to sustain those very things you are against? I don't get it.

[paraclete]

You are not supposed to Get It! Tal, Tom talks out of both sides of his mouth and votes accordingly. Tom wants his ilk to rule, he thinks he can reform their nasty ways once they are in power. Tom thinks democrats are for subsidies so he won't vote democrat, this leaves him with two choices, vote republican or don't vote at all. Will you be attending the polling booth on poling day Tom or will you put your money where your mouth is?

[tomder55]

So why vote for those that seek to sustain those very things you are against? I don't get it.

The Dems have embraced crony socialism for a century, and are active participants despite their rhetoric.Woodrow Wilson was a corporatist .The central plank of FDR's NRA was creating corporate cartels . General Hugh Johnson ,Roosevelt's point man for the New Deal copied Italian Fascism ,and carried a copy of Raffaello Viglione's'The Corporate State' with him. And it goes on today in the current administration .

As for the rest... at least the Repubics have an active movement in their party looking for true reform of the nanny-state .

[paraclete]

Tom you don't need to fear the nanny state, america will never be like the UK or Russia, too much history, but you need to realise there are people who need a helping hand and the only people who have the resources is the state. Your Lassee Faire operations has left these people at a severe disadvantage and capitalism isn't there for them. You don't actually have a nanny state, no matter how much you tell yourself you do. What you actually need is more taxation, more social welfare and a whole lot more job creation, even if it is painting rocks white. When you give people a job you empower them. It might take a generation but you lift them out of poverty. You think you have some sort of economic engine over there but there is no gas in the tank, and whatever gas you do have is going overseas. It is time for america to get its head out of its arse, stop whinning and lead, otherwise go the way of other civilisations in history and become backwaters. The Corporations you love are selling off the farm

[tomder55]

but you need to realise there are people who need a helping hand and the only people who have the resources is the state.

Never denied that... you think that is all that is being covered by a social state that eats up close to 20% of the GDP ? The nanny state has created a generation of a dependency "class" . We need to break out of that cycle because it is not sustainable.

Your Lassee Faire operations

Have never advocated that... you just love projecting these strawmen to my beliefs .

and a whole lot more job creation, even if it is painting rocks white.

lol the progressive mind in a nutshell... maybe we can paint roses red too.

[TUT317]

The Dems have embraced crony socialism for a century, and are active participants despite their rhetoric.Woodrow Wilson was a corporatist .The central plank of FDR's NRA was creating corporate cartels . General Hugh Johnson ,Roosevelt's point man for the New Deal copied Italian Fascism ,and carried a copy of Raffaello Viglione's'The Corporate State' with him. And it goes on today in the current administration .

As for the rest ...at least the Repubics have an active movement in their party looking for true reform of the nanny-state .

So it's distinctions without a difference again. Except when it comes to cronyism then apparently there is a distinction.

Corporatism is really socialism, depending on who is in power?

Fascism is really socialism?

Cronyism is really socialism, depending on who is in power?

Conservatism occupies its own unique spot on the political spectrum?

As far as reform of the nanny-state is concerned I will restate my previous question in a different way.

Is this movement within the party aware; or even acknowledges that a reduction in 'welfare' for the middle classes, working classes and unemployed needs to be followed by an equal reduction in spending of public money to favour rent-seekers who are neither 'doing' or 'making' when it comes to the obvious need for more productive labour.

It would seem to me that if we reduce spending at the bottom end then then there will be more money to furnish the equally unproductive top end of the market. That would be a good plan for anyone who is prepared to fall for it.

Tut

[paraclete]

never denied that ... you think that is all that is being covered by a social state that eats up close to 20% of the GDP ? The nanny state has created a generation of a dependency "class" . We need to break out of that cycle because it is not sustainable.

Have never advocated that ... you just love projecting these strawmen to my beliefs .
lol the progressive mind in a nutshell ... maybe we can paint roses red too.

I've said it before and I'll say it again get your head out of your arse.

You say providing for your poor eats up too much of your budget, what eats up too much of your budget is the military, you invited those people there so look after them. Land of opportunity, B/S, land of the free, yes free to starve, land of the brave yes you have to be brave to live there. You are so far into your own B/S you can't even smell it

[tomder55]

Is this movement within the party aware; or even acknowledges that a reduction in 'welfare' for the middle classes, working classes and unemployed needs to be followed by an equal reduction in spending of public money to favour rent-seekers who are neither 'doing' or 'making' when it comes to the obvious need for more productive labour.

It would seem to me that if we reduce spending at the bottom end then then there will be more money to furnish the equally unproductive top end of the market. That would be a good plan for anyone who is prepared to fall for it.

Yes ,they have been fairely consistent on that message .
Tell Republicans to end Ex-Im's corrupt corporate welfare! | Tea Party Patriots

Nineteen GOPers (and Bernie Sanders) oppose Ex-Im | WashingtonExaminer.com
Dems push corporate welfare to sink JOBS Act | WashingtonExaminer.com
The Tea Party Coalition?s War Against Corporate Welfare | Naples TEA Party Patriots

"How can we save billions of dollars from unjustified subsidy and entitlement programs, if we can't get corporate America off the dole?" Paul Ryan
“I want all of our GOP candidates to take the opportunity to kill corporate capitalism that is leading to this cronyism, which is ruining our economy.”Sarah Palin

[NeedKarma]

How about that bloated military/defense budget?

[tomder55]

you invited those people there so look after them.

??

“The new slogan for the president's campaign is “Forward.” A government that spends $1 trillion more than it takes in? An $800 billion stimulus that created more debt than jobs? A government intervention into health care paid for with higher taxes and cuts to Medicare? Scores of new rules and regulations? These ideas don't move us forward, they take us backwards. These are tired and old big government ideas. Ideas that people come to America to get away from.” Marco Rubio

[tomder55]

Corporatism is really socialism, depending on who is in power?

Fascism is really socialism?

Cronyism is really socialism, depending on who is in power?

Corporatism,Cronyism and Fascism is really socialism regardless of who is in power.

[TUT317]

Yes ,they have been fairely consistent on that message .
Tell Republicans to end Ex-Im's corrupt corporate welfare! | Tea Party Patriots

Nineteen GOPers (and Bernie Sanders) oppose Ex-Im | WashingtonExaminer.com
Dems push corporate welfare to sink JOBS Act | WashingtonExaminer.com
The Tea Party Coalition?s War Against Corporate Welfare | Naples TEA Party Patriots

"How can we save billions of dollars from unjustified subsidy and entitlement programs, if we can't get corporate America off the dole?" Paul Ryan
“I want all of our GOP candidates to take the opportunity to kill corporate capitalism that is leading to this cronyism, which is ruining our economy.”Sarah Palin

Hi Tom,

I will be interested in reading the links you provide.

But, yes- Prima facie it does seems to address my concerns.


Tut