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annabear · Jul 29, 2012, 08:34 PM

I'm just asking innocently here. Why should I believe in something like that if there really is no evidence? I feel like I WANT to believe but It doesn't seem rational at all to me. Right now I believe in evolution. But apparently there's also no evidence of evolution. I just want proof. If you know of any proof of any deity (people sharing their near death experiences) or any proof of evolution, please share. ALSO: is it OK to believe in Jesus and not god? Or believe in Jesus and god but also believe in evolution? Thanks

Fr_Chuck · Jul 29, 2012, 08:48 PM

Let me see proof, 100's of eye witness testimony in the Bible of people who knew Jesus, saw his death or knew about it, and then saw him raised. Dozens of people who knew him personally and wrote about his rising from the dead.

Paul the man who probably hated Christians more than anyone, was converted and spent most of the rest of his life in prison for that faith because of a meeting with the risen Lord.

You have Jesus brother James, who was not a believer before Jesus death, and after he saw his brother raised from the dead, he became of the faithful.

You have many 1st century writers who did not know Jesus personally but knew the followers who wrote about it.

You have the universe and creation, in all of its perfect harmony, that could not have ever been made anyway else. There is minor evolution, but there is no proof of change of species. Also if man evolved, then why is there only one type of man with the same DNA, not dozens of variations from different parts of the world. They would have evolved from various forms of life to become man.

How is it that man has a level of moral values that are universal. It is a law that is written in their hearts.

There is plenty of proof if you will accept it.

annabear · Jul 29, 2012, 08:52 PM

Well keep the bible out of it. Paul and Jesus brother: is there even proof of them? Or anybody u mentioned

Wondergirl · Jul 29, 2012, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by annabear

Well keep the bible out of it. Paul and Jesus brother: is there even proof of them? Or anybody u mentioned

You can get this book (Evidence and Paul's Journeys: An Historical Investigation into the Travels of the Apostle Paul) at your library (or through interlibrary loan). Read this page for a preview of the evidence --

Evidence and Paul's Journeys

Wondergirl · Jul 29, 2012, 09:08 PM

I'm thinking read, read, and read some more. The 200s at your library is full of books explaining or trying to explain things from the Old and New Testaments.

dwashbur · Jul 29, 2012, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by annabear

Well keep the bible out of it. Paul and Jesus brother: is there even proof of them? Or anybody u mentioned

What would constitute proof for you?

annabear · Jul 29, 2012, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

What would constitute proof for you?

I mean, I think I'll accept mostly anything except the bible

Alty · Jul 29, 2012, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by annabear

I mean, I think I'll accept mostly anything except the bible

Then you're pretty much screwed.

Listen, religious belief isn't about proof, it's about belief. It's believing that the bible is real, that the stories in it are real. It's believing in God, Budda, or whatever else you have faith in.

It sounds like you want to believe. If you do, proof doesn't matter. You'll never have absolute proof, even if someone says "I had a near death experience and saw God". That's not proof. That's one persons belief, experience.

That's the funny thing about religion. You can't prove that one religious belief is right and the other is wrong. If anyone had absolute proof we'd all believe in the same thing, and no one would question anything. That's why it's religious belief, not religious fact.

You don't have to believe in anything. Many people live very happy fulfilled lives believing in Gooboo the tree frog fairy (I made that up), or not having any religious beliefs at all. It really is up to you. But proof? You won't find any. At least not anything that can actually be considered viable proof. It's all belief based. No one can prove that the bible is factual. They believe it is. No one can prove that God and Jesus exist. They believe that they do.

What do you believe? Can you believe without proof? It sounds like you're begging for a reason to believe. Belief isn't about proof. It's about following your heart. So what does your heart say?

Before you write back saying that I'm just trying to bring you into the fold. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm not a Christian. I don't believe in the bible, and I don't believe in a Christian God. At this moment I'm a Deist. Lately I've been leaning more towards becoming a Wiccan. So no, I don't want to bring you into any "fold". But really, after reading your post, I think you've already decided what you believe, you're just afraid that you're making the wrong choice because you have no proof.

I'm off to worship Gooboo now. Good luck figuring it all out. :)

Fr_Chuck · Jul 30, 2012, 04:47 AM

That is saying, I need to fix my car and I will read poetry and I will read westerns but I will not read the repair manual.

If you refuse to read the proof, you don't want to know the truth. What about the bible scares you to read it and discuss it ?

Plus we know these are real people, from the 100's of writings of the next generation of people who came after them. The writings of the 1st century church leaders.

Also the historical facts contained in the OT, that is matched by teachings of the Jewish faith and of Islam.
In fact even Islam accepts that Jesus was born they even accept he was born of a virgin. Can't ask for better proof than a religion that rejects him as Savior, Speaks about him throughout their teachings.

shawngoldberg · Jul 30, 2012, 07:15 AM

Why Should you don't believe? You have to believe that god help you every time and god is always there to help you...

classyT · Jul 30, 2012, 07:27 AM

Well I will give what PROVES it for me.

There is one nation that should not be here today... Israel. There is no earthy reason for her to be a nation, nor for the individual Jew to even know his nationality. There has been no other people without a land for over 2000 years who have kept there identity as a people. Let alone get their Nation back. And if THAT doesn't make you think a little... how about getting it back in a DAY. Cause that is what the bible predicted. Isaiah 66:8... Can a Nation be born in a Day? Yes it was May 14, 1948 Israel became a Nation again after not existing for 2000 years. Interesting? When is the last time you met a philistine? You haven't. You will never know who a philistine is. They are an extinct people. They have no land, no nation. You may just read over this and think "big fat hairy deal". But in fact it IS a BIG DEAL. The Jew should be gone. Not only have they wandered the earth without a land for over 2000 years, there has been no other people so hated than the Jewish people. They should have been wiped of the map never to be heard from again... except GOD said it would NEVER happen.

When is the last time you have heard of a dead language bringing back to life. Hebrew was. No one spoke it anymore... it was gone. But surprise, surprise, that is what they speak in Israel today. Why? Cause GOD said it would be a dead language brought back to life. I can give you the biblical reference for that if you would like.

Here is thing... you can read historical facts concerning the Jews and Israel. Those are FACTS... But what you MUST look at is what the Bible said would happened to them as a people and what would happen to them as a Nation. The things written about Israel in the Bible were written hundreds of years before the prophecies came to pass and history shows us it happened just like the Bible said it would.

But even if you don't believe the bible... History is history. And I think the Jew alone is enough for anyone to come to their senses and recognize that there IS a God.

annabear · Jul 30, 2012, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

That is saying, I need to fix my car and I will read poetry and I will read westerns but I will not read the repair manual.

If you refuse to read the proof, you don't want to know the truth. What about the bible scares you to read it and discuss it ?

Plus we know these are real people, from the 100's of writings of the next generation of people who came after them. The writings of the 1st century church leaders.

also the historical facts contained in the OT, that is matched by teachings of the Jewish faith and of Islam.
In fact even Islam accepts that Jesus was born they even accept he was born of a virgin. Can't ask for better proof than a religion that rejects him as Savior, Speaks about him thoughout their teachings.

But I don't believe that the bible is credible evidence. They say it's like written by god but who is this god? I don't think there's any evidence of him. I'm just really unsure about all this

tickle · Jul 30, 2012, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Alty

Then you're pretty much screwed.

Listen, religious belief isn't about proof, it's about belief. It's believing that the bible is real, that the stories in it are real. It's believing in God, Budda, or whatever else you have faith in.

It sounds like you want to believe. If you do, proof doesn't matter. You'll never have absolute proof, even if someone says "I had a near death experience and saw God". That's not proof. That's one persons belief, experience.

That's the funny thing about religion. You can't prove that one religious belief is right and the other is wrong. If anyone had absolute proof we'd all believe in the same thing, and no one would question anything. That's why it's religious belief, not religious fact.

You don't have to believe in anything. Many people live very happy fulfilled lives believing in Gooboo the tree frog fairy (I made that up), or not having any religious beliefs at all. It really is up to you. But proof? You won't find any. At least not anything that can actually be considered viable proof. It's all belief based. No one can prove that the bible is factual. They believe it is. No one can prove that God and Jesus exist. They believe that they do.

What do you believe? Can you believe without proof? It sounds like you're begging for a reason to believe. Belief isn't about proof. It's about following your heart. So what does your heart say?

Before you write back saying that I'm just trying to bring you into the fold. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm not a Christian. I don't believe in the bible, and I don't believe in a Christian God. At this moment I'm a Deist. Lately I've been leaning more towards becoming a Wiccan. So no, I don't want to bring you into any "fold". But really, after reading your post, I think you've already decided what you believe, you're just afraid that you're making the wrong choice because you have no proof.

I'm off to worship Gooboo now. Good luck figuring it all out. :)

Oh (clapping hands in delight at the prospect of a new deity), can I come too! PLEASE ! And can we light a FIRE!

classyT · Jul 30, 2012, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by annabear

But I don't believe that the bible is credible evidence. They say it's like written by god but who is this god? I dont think there's any evidence of him. I'm just really unsure about all this

It doesn't matter if you think the bible is credible evidence. Look at history, study the Jews and THEN take a look see what the Bible has to say about the Jew. The Jew is proof for me that God is and his Word is truth. The fact that they exist and know who they are as a people is a miracle. The Jews had no land, no country, no nation for 2000 years. There has been no people like that before. AND that in and of itself would be a miracle but it gets better... they get their land back, they become a nation again... it is a miracle. BUT IT GETS BETTER... they don't just get it back, they become a nation in a DAY. May 14, 1948. Why? Because GOD said it would happen in the BIBLE. What do you the odds are of just that coming to pass exactly the bible said it would?

I know I am repeating myself. But honestly... how does anyone explain the Jew? Proof to me... God's word is truth.

Wondergirl · Jul 30, 2012, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by tickle

Oh (clapping hands in delight at the prospect of a new deity), can I come too! PLEASE ! and can we light a FIRE!!

GooBoo is a tree frog fairy and does not like fire. Could I interest you in taking a swim in GooBoo's honor?

tickle · Jul 30, 2012, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

GooBoo is a tree frog fairy and does not like fire. Could I interest you in taking a swim in GooBoo's honor?

Mmmm frog legs, how delightful. There was a restaurant in Ortonville MI called Carmens that must have had lots of GooBoos. They deep fried some lovely GooBoos all the time.Too bad GooBoo doesn't like sacrificial fire.
No, no swim, thanks, just lots of legs.

Alty · Jul 30, 2012, 12:34 PM

Are two cooking my God? Blasphemy! ;)

Wondergirl · Jul 30, 2012, 12:37 PM

We're eating him too. I never knew frogs' legs were so good! Am I radiating a celestial glow?

The interesting thing is that this too could be made into a religion where faith, not proof, is its basis. Newer religions such as Scientology and Christian Science and Mormonism are examples of how beliefs (and entire church bodies) come about without concrete evidence.

Alty · Jul 30, 2012, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

We're eating him too. I never knew frogs' legs were so good! Am I radiating a celestial glow?

The interesting thing is that this too could be made into a religion where faith, not proof, is its basis. Newer religions such as Scientology and Christian Science and Mormonism are examples of how beliefs (and entire church bodies) come about without concrete evidence.

Exactly. GooBoo is a totally viable Deity. I could start a religion based on him. Or I could before you guys ate him. ;)

But this is what religion is all about. Belief. I could write a "bible" about GooBoo, claim he's the real deal, and some people would follow.

So it really is all a matter of faith, and what you choose to believe.

Wondergirl · Jul 30, 2012, 12:54 PM

The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was formed in just that way.