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Ultra Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 11:52 AM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Protecting our borders from a short, cute red-haired German-looking woman who can say only "hola" and "poco" and "adios"? Or from something else?
Some 'cops' are radically stupid when it comes to exercising discretion, like certain TSA screeners, but if I recall they did let this guy through did they not?
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Ultra Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 11:54 AM
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 Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, Steve:
You seem to think a search involves touching.. I maintain that searching for your citizenship is as much a search as looking in your trunk would be.
excon
So we should just do away with drivers licenses, testing and speed limits or what?
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Uber Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 11:58 AM
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 Originally Posted by speechlesstx
So we should just do away with drivers licenses, testing and speed limits or what?
Hello again, Steve:
In the first place, the cops were only ASKING him what his citizenship was. They were NOT asking him to produce ANYTHING out of his pocket... So, I'm addressing what HAPPENED, not what DIDN'T happen.. You're confused.
excon
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jul 12, 2012, 12:13 PM
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 Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Some 'cops' are radically stupid when it comes to exercising discretion, like certain TSA screeners, but if I recall they did let this guy through did they not?
"Let" this GUY--oh THAT guy--through? Why did they allow him to go through, after all?
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Ultra Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 12:21 PM
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 Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, Steve:
In the first place, the cops were only ASKING him what his citizenship was. They were NOT asking him to produce ANYTHING out of his pocket.... So, I'm addressing what HAPPENED, not what DIDN'T happen.. You're confused.
excon
Bingo, you finally got there to what happened. There was no searching, no beating, no kicking, no macing, he just inquired. Is that unconstitutional?
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Ultra Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 12:26 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
"Let" this GUY--oh THAT guy--through? Why did they allow him to go through, after all?
I answered that on page one - more than once. In fact I've mentioned "discretion" 3 times, once directly to you.
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Uber Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 12:27 PM
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 Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Is that unconstitutional?
Hello again, Steve:
Yes, it IS... He was searching for the citizenship of the driver.. In this great land of ours, we USED to be able to walk around UNFETTERED by the cops.. THAT was the design.. That's what a FREE country is all about.. How come you don't know that?
It's NOT that way anymore.. It's MUCH more Gestapo. It's GETTING that way WITH your help. If it was ME, I'd be ASHAMED.
excon
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jul 12, 2012, 12:37 PM
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 Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I answered that
No, you didn't. They let him through because he didn't fit the profile.
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Ultra Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 01:39 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No, you didn't. They let him through because he didn't fit the profile.
In other words, he used his discretion which is what I said the first two times. They have "wide discretion" which they exercised.
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Ultra Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 02:01 PM
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 Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, Steve:
Yes, it IS... He was searching for the citizenship of the driver.. In this great land of ours, we USED to be able to walk around UNFETTERED by the cops.. THAT was the design.. That's what a FREE country is all about.. How come you don't know that?
It's NOT that way anymore.. It's MUCH more Gestapo. It's GETTING that way WITH your help. If it was ME, I'd be ASHAMED.
Excon
Dude, you're really stretching. No one is stopping the guy from moving about the country freely. You may as well consider stop signs, traffic lights, one way streets, yield signs and speed limits a violation of your right to drive around UNFETTERED as well.
And again, I go back to precedent:
Definition of "search"
A threshold question in Fourth Amendment jurisprudence is whether a search has occurred. If no search occurred, then the Fourth Amendment does not apply.
In Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967), the Supreme Court ruled that a search occurs when 1) a person expects privacy in the thing searched and 2) society believes that expectation is reasonable.
In Katz, the Supreme Court ruled that a search had occurred when the government wiretapped a telephone booth.[22] The Court's reasoning was that 1) Charles Katz expected that his phonebooth conversation would not be broadcast to the wider world and 2) society believes that expectation is reasonable.
In United States v. Jones, 565 U. S. ____ (2012), the Supreme Court ruled that, in addition to the Katz standard, a search occurs when law enforcement trespasses on the searched person's property. In Jones, law enforcement officers had attached a GPS device on a car's exterior without Antoine Jones's consent. The Court concluded that Jones was a bailee to the car, because the car's owner had regularly permitted him to use the car, and so had a property interest in the car.[23]
There is no expectation of privacy on a public, controlled road. But if you can show me the precedent that it's unreasonable to be asked a question by the cops when you're just trying to drive down the road I'm listening. I don't like to go through checkpoints either, but I have nothing to be ashamed of for my view.
There is no unconditional right to drive our streets and highways that I'm aware of.
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Uber Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 02:24 PM
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 Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Dude, you're really stretching. No one is stopping the guy from moving about the country freely.
Hello again, Steve:
I've always known that we didn't share the same view of America.. But the gap is WIDER than I could have imagined...
In this free country of ours, I believe we HAVE the right to move about WITHOUT ANY interference from the police - unless there's probable cause to stop you. At least that's what the Constitution says.. YOU, on the other hand, believe that if a cops business is MORE important than yours, he can IMPEDE your freedom, and that's just OK with you.
It's not a teeny little difference... It's a MAJOR difference... My position is ABSOLUTE - just like the Constitution is. YOURS is a slippery slope that ENDS just like where I said it would... With ARMBANDS, and maybe a concentration camp or two...
I'm a JEW.. You cannot imagine HOW repulsive it is to be asked for your papers (metaphor for DO YOU BELONG?) You, who speak about a close relationship with Israel, would ENDORSE the behavior that lead to the holocaust.
THAT is why the Fourth Amendment is written like it is, and you, who purport to LOVE the Constitution just threw it in the trashcan...
excon
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Ultra Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 03:02 PM
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First of all I don't like checkpoints, I'm just curious where you find this unconditional right to drive our streets and highways. And comparing it to the gestapo and the holocaust is way over the top.
The rulings are clear, if you don't like file suit. And while you're at it, don't try to fly, that'll really pi$$ you off.
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Uber Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 03:56 PM
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 Originally Posted by speechlesstx
First of all I don't like checkpoints, I'm just curious where you find this unconditional right to drive our streets and highways.
Hello again, Steve:
We're not going to get anywhere as long as you SPIN what I said... I didn't say you have an unconditional right to drive. I said you have the right to MOVE about this country UNFETTERED... It has NOTHING to do with driving.. It has to do with MOVING ABOUT.. You have the right to WALK unfettered.. Drive, unfettered, swim, unfettered. The MODE of transportation ISN'T the issue.. FREE MOVEMENT IS. You don't need a license to move about UNFETTERED...
Am I clear, or do you want to throw more sh!t into the game?
Oh, never mind... I'll NEVER convince you about the BASIC FREEDOMS our Constitution calls for... I have no idea why not. I certainly NEVER thought a person who, purportedly, LOVES the Constitution could SO mangle what it means...
excon
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Ultra Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 04:48 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So I would not have to be checked since I look nothing like an illegal (whatever that looks like).
What does an illegal look like?
They are not looking for illegals . They are looking for people driving without licenses. They are checking everyone since only checking for "someone who looks like an illegal " would be a rights violation.
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jul 12, 2012, 05:00 PM
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 Originally Posted by tomder55
They are not looking for illegals . They are looking for people driving without licenses. They are checking everyone since only checking for "someone who looks like an illegal " would be a rights violation.
But isn't it illegals who drive down there without a license? Or do Jim Bob's 15 year-old son and his friends drive without licenses and the cops want to catch them?
I'm guessing the "driving without a license" is just an excuse, a cover story.
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Ultra Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 05:37 PM
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 Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, Steve:
We're not going to get anywhere as long as you SPIN what I said... I didn't say you have an unconditional right to drive.[/quo
Oh, never mind... I'll NEVER convince you about the BASIC FREEDOMS our Constitution calls for... I have no idea why not. I certainly NEVER thought a person who, purportedly, LOVES the Constitution could SO mangle what it means...
excon
I'm not the one comparing a checkpoint to the gestapo and the holocaust and distorting what I've said.
What I said was I don't like checkpoints but I don't see the fuss. You admit we don't have an unconditional right to drive on our highways but whine about the conditions. Which is it, are there conditions or not? I'm consistent, you move the line every time.
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Ultra Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 06:04 PM
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 Originally Posted by Wondergirl
But isn't it illegals who drive down there without a license? Or do Jim Bob's 15 year-old son and his friends drive without licenses and the cops want to catch them?
I'm guessing the "driving without a license" is just an excuse, a cover story.
No ,they will pull over anyone driving without a license ;illegal alien or not.
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Jobs & Parenting Expert
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Jul 12, 2012, 06:07 PM
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 Originally Posted by tomder55
no ,they will pull over anyone driving without a license ;illegal alien or not.
But they aren't looking for teens without licenses, are they.
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Ultra Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 06:14 PM
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Having seen the video I would say that fellow is extremely fortunate the cops didn't detain him for refusing to comply with the lawfull instruction of a police officer. Would it have hurt to comply, take the officers details and make a complaint to his congressman. It cost him more time to argue than comply
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Uber Member
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Jul 12, 2012, 06:43 PM
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 Originally Posted by tomder55
They are not looking for illegals . They are looking for people driving without licenses. They are checking everyone since only checking for "someone who looks like an illegal " would be a rights violation.
Hello again, tom:
Look at the video again... These are federal Border Patrol agents.. They don't give a sh!t if you drive without a license... They don't even have the power to ticket you for it...
They let the guy go because he did not fit the profile..
excon
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