[talaniman]

Its not the point of what YOUR nation personally did with YOUR situation, but about the GREEK people can do with theirs. Nationally OUR recovery appears slow, but a regional analysis reveals great pockets of recovery, and while slow, is very steady. Corporate profits are through the roof, in private business sectors, and a more flexible congress is the only thing stopping a serious growth boom, but the WAR here is hardly over.

I find your statement,

one of the reasons your economy is slow to recover is lack of incentive for investment caused by low interest rates.

At a time of already record profits and growing by the quarter, the interest rates being low has nothing to do with investment incentives. Truth be told, they could care less as American corporate extractionism is about getting rich without creating anything but wealth, and they have proved they can do that.

That's why I added the link, about what the big banks are trying to do here, and in Europe, and... wait for it... CHINA!

[paraclete]

Thats why I added the link, about what the big banks are trying to do here, and in Europe, and ......wait for it......................CHINA!

Tal we offer many lessons on how to manage a country, development and a budget and I have no doubt the Greeks could benefit from it. As a small nation our systems are probably more appropriate to the scale of the Greek economy. One feature is a very effective taxation system, and I have noted the perpensity of people from mediterranian nations to have a caviliar attitude towards taxation. . The banks are doing what banks do everywhere, protecting both their asset and their income, but China is a different environment to Europe, when you do something wrong there, the justice system takes a different road

[talaniman]

Even the Greeks have no faith in their banks anymore.

[paraclete]

Understandable, their status is also junk bond status because of the soveriegn nation rating so even if they are sound their cost of funds is high and access limited, but the Greeks know the possibility of an exit from the Euro so they are keeping their Euros in a safer place where they can access them as well as keeping them from the prying eyes of the government. There has been a lot of tax evasion in Greece and funds have moved cross border.

The Greeks have done this to themselves and the remedy is hard to take because the impact always falls on the poor, the unemployed

[paraclete]

The PIGS are back in the limelight with Spain suffering a severe liquidity crisis and looking for an injection of capital into its banks. The only way out is merger and acquisition and we might even use the "B" word; bankruptcy, someone has to be allowed to fail, however undesirable that may be. If the local economy cannot provide capital, hasn't the confidence to provide capital, then the government becomes the lender of the last resort and nationalisation follows. Why should the rest of Europe be involved? Why should the rest of Europe be asked to do what the Spanish government is reluctant to do?

[talaniman]

That's what they get for not having a central European government. Then they could be restuctured instead of good money chasing bad, or imposing crippling and smothering "austerity" on a contracting economy, or NON economy.

[paraclete]

Thats what they get for not having a central European government. Then they could be restuctured instead of good money chasing bad, or imposing crippling and smothering "austerity" on a contracting economy, or NON economy.

Tal they have a central european government, they just don't have financial intregration. The europeans don't want to be ruled by Brussles in the way you are ruled from Washington. They realise there is already too much centralisation of power. We have to be realistic here, if the economy is contracting it doesn't need as many public servants to administer it so austerity is about financial management. In my own country a state government just announced massive cuts to the public service, no one rioted in the streets, no one ran around shouting, austerity, doom and gloom, all understood there has been economic contraction and measures have to be taken

Just imagine what you are suggesting means. A common pension plan for everyone in Europe, irrespective of how long the country has been part of Europe and contributed. A common taxation regime. Military integration not just NATO. Income sharing from the central government. There are three dominant economies in Europe and they can't agree on the methodology, how will the rest agree.

Austerity is the tool of the IMF and the World Bank, institutions dominated by the US

[tomder55]

someone has to be allowed to fail, however undesirable that may be.

been saying that since 2008

Why should the rest of Europe be involved? Why should the rest of Europe be asked to do what the Spanish government is reluctant to do?

They shouldn't ,but it is the price they pay for constructing an artificial economic zone with a common currency. The productive nations must pay for the leeches.

That's what they get for not having a central European government. Then they could be restuctured instead of good money chasing bad, or imposing crippling and smothering "austerity" on a contracting economy, or NON economy.

No ,the flaw is in the economic model. The only way that Europe has historically been united is in dictatorship. Don't think we want that... do we ;even with this love of central control ?

We have to be realistic here, if the economy is contracting it doesn't need as many public servants to administer it so austerity is about financial management. In my own country a state government just announced massive cuts to the public service, no one rioted in the streets, no one ran around shouting, austerity, doom and gloom, all understood there has been economic contraction and measures have to be taken

Some of our state and local leaders get that . What we have in Washington instead is leadership obsessed in expanding the public payroll.It is there where constituencies are bought.

[paraclete]

Some of our state and local leaders get that . What we have in Washington instead is leadership obsessed in expanding the public payroll.It is there where constituencies are bought.

You mean to say your people can't see beyond tamminy hall politics after all this time. What do they call that over there; boondogglin? Well this is the season for boondogglin, so boondoggle away. Has the thought occurred to anyone that if the money being spent on razzle dazzle was spent on boosting the economy you would be out of recession by now. No money to create employment but plenty to throw away on advertising, I certainly hope they can't get a tax deduction for that

[talaniman]

As long as you have a small elite unelected part of the population making policy, and rules and regulations, there is going to be an uneven distribution of wealth, an uneven opportunity for wealth, and massive abuses of the setting of priorities. Restoring circulation is the bed rock of any economic growth. Austerity,(cost cutting) must be balanced by growth, as contraction slows growth, and stops circulation.

Its cause and effect, best exemplified by the results of austerity measures that have produced high unemployment, AND massive declines in circulation of much needed resources. Especially when debts, sustainable before becomes an anchor to growth or even breaking even.

[tomder55]

As long as you have a small elite unelected part of the population making policy, and rules and regulations, there is going to be an uneven distribution of wealth, an uneven opportunity for wealth, and massive abuses of the setting of priorities.

union leadership ?

[paraclete]

union leadership ?

No Tom I think it is called the Senate and the Congress

[tomder55]

Those are elected branches.

[talaniman]

union leadership ?

Actually I mean't the ones with the power and money to control the government, and the people. And corporations.

[tomder55]

So did I when I wrote 'union leadership'.

[paraclete]

So did I when I wrote 'union leadership'.

so did I when I wrote Senate and Congress, being elected doesn't change the equation since money and influence is needed to get elected

[tomder55]

Possibly ;but you didn't hear the Dems crying about it when they swept the Presidency and both houses of Congress in 2008 . Bet you they claim there was no corporate money in that win.

[paraclete]

Possibly ;but you didn't hear the Dems crying about it when they swept the Presidency and both houses of Congress in 2008 . Bet ya they claim there was no corporate money in that win.

No it all came from Obama's personal coffers. What do you want Tom, the government to take control of the elections, set the budget and pay the expenses. It certainly would be a better system but no republican would ever get elected

[talaniman]

After 8 years of Bush, we ALL cried, even you Tom, an instead of rejecting his ways, now you embrace them, and want more of them. How quickly you forget. So now you want what the Europeans are being ripped apart with, AUSTERITY, cuts on the backs of working poor, and getting poorer. No investment in things that NEED investing in, and more extraction of wealth by the already wealthy. But you expect different results.

The Romney/Ryan plan guarantees higher debts, and deficits, an neither shows the growths that they claim, just keep feeding the rich and it will be okay. At least Ryan is straight forward about his cuts, but Romney won't tell because he knows the uninformed voters on the right won't even stand for the cuts he is so secret about, because he wants to be President.

And they holler about Obama making us like Europe! At least the right does. Lets face it, the jobs bill the president proposed will pass with flying colors if you guys can kick every body off Medicare, and your kids, not Romney's, will suffer for generations. Once the Europeans embrace co ordinated investment and circulation of money, they can grow, but like all free trade, supply side, conservatives every where, they protect the rich and are accomplices in robbery over the population.

They will learn as they go through their own depression because the rich fat Greeks on top screwed up everything with there nickel slick, scam game on there own people. Just like we and are repeating the mistakes of the past.

[paraclete]

Don't worry Tal you will never be old Europe, you are a different place with different ways, founded by people who weren't wanted in Europe