[paraclete]

Has anyone noticed that once again the failed economies of Europe are again threatening the world economic stability? What I cannot understand is why Greece cannot be allowed to fail. Time and time again we have seen these basket case economies fall over. Usually it is not a developed country, however when sitting in the sun is your daily pastime, someone has to pay and it should not be the rest of Europe who own that pile of ancient ruins at the end of the Ahean absolutely nothing, and nor should it be the other nations of the world.

In the case of Greece it conned its way into the EU and should be chucked out on its ear so that the people within the nation take the pain and inflict as much as possible of it on their lacklustre politicians and bureaucrats. Let the European banks who made a bad investment take the pain. Every time the name of Greece is mentioned the financial markets chuck a woobbly and reduce the value of stocks, not because they necessarily have any investment in Greece but because of uncertainty. So I say let's have certainty, not money in Greece, extend the loans or write them off forclose and take over the place and sell it up

Now the Spanish people are indignant that the pain of their stupid decision making should fall on them. More tough love needed here. Make yourselves competitive, there is no money to be earned marching in the streets

[talaniman]

Europe doesn't have the courage to restructure their finances the greedy b@stards.

[paraclete]

Tal don't start talking about greedy b@stards, please remember who caused the GFC and started the global meltdown also I note a similar reluctance in your own country to swallowing the medicine needed to address financial issues, So perhaps the yankee could show us their courage and reform their financial position, after all, 15 trillion, a mere baggatelle for such a strong economy.

What I say is reform is needed everywhere and start with those greedy b#stards the CEO who take home millions for doing nothing there should be ceilings put on corporate largesse and compensation schemes and one of the best ways to do it is a super tax on all earnings above a million dollars and an effective capital gains tax

[tomder55]

You think reforming corporate salaries will be anything more than spit in the ocean ? You know as well as I do that the restructure is needed in the budgets of nations ;including serious reforms of entitlements . Greece ;and France revolted against politicians who had the courage to suggest what really was needed was haircuts. I expect nothing less from the spoiled masses here.

[talaniman]

LOL, Tom, but that let the rich get richer by rigging the game and sucking wealth out of the economy will not go over well with REAL working people who have never tasted silver before in their lives. Haven't you seen the BS about not putting the debts on the backs of our children?

Trust me guy, people like Romney's children will never be burdened by any debt. But YOURS will, and are NOW. I go with Clete, raise the taxes, cut back bonuses, and lets stop letting the business cycle dictate whether we can buy stuff.

When they make Germany toe the line, Greece can recover, because AUSTERITY among the many doesn't work. That's the lesson of the European Union, whether you like it or not. But conservatives who accuse the current president of making us like Europe, are the ones pushing the policies of Europe, to hide the fact that a few silver spoons come before the many real people.

Good luck Mitt, you will need it, you selective memory bully.

[tomder55]

When they make Germany toe the line, Greece can recover,

Germany has been the only resposible nation in the EU . And what happened ? Merkel's party got hammered this weekend.

[tomder55]

Good luck Mitt, you will need it, you selective memory bully.

lol ,Did you mention that because I talked of taking a HAIRCUT ?
The Compost can't prove their claim. The "victims " relatives never heard the story . Maybe we have some Dan Rather journalism going on here.

[talaniman]

So I guess his cronies regretting their actions was made up?

Day After Obama Marriage Equality Move, Story Emerges of Teenage Romney Tackling, Cutting Hair of Boy He Believed to Be Gay | AlterNet

The Post reports that five former classmates of Romney's recalled the incident independently. The former classmates, who span the political spectrum, called the act "vicious," "senseless," and "idiotic," among other things.

He may not of told the family, but the bullies all remembered except the ring leader. So who says the POST couldn't back up the story?

[tomder55]

Let them... this story is going nowhere. One of the Compost witnesses has said he really did not see the incident.
Gee what else are they going to find out about Romney.. that he was an admitted high school coke and pot head ? That he associated with domestic terrorists ?


I wonder if the Compost will do a 5,000 word essay on this story : snopes.com: Romney Business Partner Daughter Search


Or this one :

The Heroic Romney Rescue That, For Some Reason, The Campaign Doesn't Talk About

[paraclete]

Back on track fellows no hijacking the thread, My Question to Tom is why should the little people take the pain, you say the entitlements are too big but you don't live in their economy, you don't know the price of anything, Europe can be a very expensive place and it is the rich, not the poor who have made Greece a basket case avoiding taxes and hiding their wealth. The IMF comes along and says take a haircut or is that a headcut when it should be saying what will it take to grow your economy. You start with putting ceilings in place not cutting pensions. You start with finding a way of attracting industry and revitalising the existing ones,

[talaniman]

it is the rich, not the poor who have made Greece a basket case avoiding taxes and hiding their wealth.

Same here, and like here, they want the poor to pay for the rich.

[tomder55]

Nonsense. What de Toqueville said of America is the same for Europe.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. "Alexis de Tocqueville

Further ,the politicians consistently lied about the economic health of the nation to gain entrance into the EU . You can't tell me that they have managed it well when the debt is 120% of GDP. You can squeeze the rich until they have no money left and that will not change the fact that they over commit to reckless government spending.
One in three Greeks works for the government. Government employees enjoy higher wages, more benefits, and earlier retirements than private-sector employees. Civil servants can retire after 35 years of service at 80 percent of their highest salary and enjoy lavish health plans, vacations, and other perks.Some civil servants receive bonuses for using computers, others get a bonus just for arriving at work on time. All civil servants receive 14 yearly checks for twelve months’ work. And it’s almost impossible to fire them — even for the grossest incompetence. The retirement age is 60 .

The PIGS, incurred massive debt as the result of their “cradle to grave” social programs.The Greeks and France have now chosen suicide over solvency. Good luck to them.

[talaniman]

Just can't admit that your heroes ROBBED us can you?

[paraclete]

nonsense. What de Toqueville said of America is the same for Europe.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. "Alexis de Tocqueville

Further ,the politicians consistently lied about the economic health of the nation to gain entrance into the EU . You can't tell me that they have managed it well when the debt is 120% of GDP. You can squeeze the rich until they have no money left and that will not change the fact that they over commit to reckless government spending.
One in three Greeks works for the government. Government employees enjoy higher wages, more benefits, and earlier retirements than private-sector employees. Civil servants can retire after 35 years of service at 80 percent of their highest salary and enjoy lavish health plans, vacations, and other perks.Some civil servants receive bonuses for using computers, others get a bonus just for arriving at work on time. All civil servants receive 14 yearly checks for twelve months’ work. And it’s almost impossible to fire them — even for the grossest incompetence. The retirement age is 60 .

The PIGS, incurred massive debt as the result of their “cradle to grave” social programs.The Greeks and France have now chosen suicide over solvency. Good luck to them.

Never seen a rich man squeezed until he has no money left, you would have me believe they bleed blood like the rest of us. You need to understand the statistics a little better, Greece is a small country and so relies on state owned enterprises more, thus it has more government employees. My own nation did not begin a privatisation program until its population reached 20 million. Nothing wrong with a retirement age of 60 just so long as the state doesn't have to pay for it, better than filling the place with loafers and that retirement age may the practical way of attrition rather than extending the payroll another five years. So Greece operates on a four week cycle with a bonus paid for leave. Greece is a hot country the workforce may wearout earlier than in the cold climes you are used to and be incapable of manual labour in old age. It seems it is almost impossible to fire the politicians and bureaucrats who run your nation also, have you noted how long some of these people have walked the corridors of power? It appears you have never heard of people being paid skill bonuses or more money after upgrading their skills. Sometimes Tom I think you just run off at the mouth, but then your political persuasion makes you that way

You should not make comparisons with your standards some of these places faced devistation in WWII others weren't the recipricants of your generous war reparations like Germany was

[tomder55]

Greece is a small country and so relies on state owned enterprises more

The size of the nation isn't the issue .It is the socialized policies.

Nothing wrong with a retirement age of 60 just so long as the state doesn't have to pay for it,

Indeed it does ;although in reality it's more like they pick the pockets of productive workers because the promised pensions were never funded.

It seems it is almost impossible to fire the politicians and bureaucrats who run your nation also, have you noted how long some of these people have walked the corridors of power?

I've noted that a number of times and have given the right prescription to that issue... term limits.

You should not make comparisons with your standards some of these places faced devistation in WWII others weren't the recipricants of your generous war reparations like Germany was

You're joking right ? Now who's running from the mouth ? The Marshall Plan aid was divided amongst the participant states on a roughly per capita basis so the Greek share was per capita about the same as other nations . In fact ;because of the threat of communist takeover ,Greece and Turkey were the 1st nations addressed by the plan. On March 12, 1947, President Truman addressed Congress and asked for $400 million in economic aid for Greece and Turkey. The real problem is that Greece never took the steps to become a modern economy ;but at the same time did the nanny state game as if it's economy was loaded with cash.

[TUT317]

nonsense. What de Toqueville said of America is the same for Europe.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. "Alexis de Tocqueville

Hi Tom,

How about the wealthy discovering they can bribe congress to increase their largeness from the public purse.

How about we cut back on this rather than, Oh... say, Meals on Wheels?

Shades of John Saul in his 1995 CBC Massey Lectures. Like de Tocqueville, Saul must be able to see into the future.

The big social programs will take some time to get rid of, but we can always start with the small ones.

As Tal's Meals on Wheels clip (different thread) showed it is not good to look too callous, but given the economic circumstances callousness might be of political advantage.

"We have done wrong. We have had it easy. We have indebted ourselves. Now we must pay. We must don hair shirts. We must impose suffering upon ourselves. Of course the suffering will fall on others, but that is beside the point."

[tomder55]

As Tal's Meals on Wheels clip (different thread) showed it is not good to look too callous,

Yeah it is the appearance that is the problem..

Me ;I would've cut food aid to the NORKs instead.

MOW is largely a privately funded charity . You can find hundreds of examples where a reduction in the rate of spending increases is called a draconian cut .Sooner or later either the budget is balanced or much more draconian steps are required. Much better to borrow Chinese money that our grandkids will repay I guess .

[TUT317]

yeah it is the appearance that is the problem ..

Me ;I would've cut food aid to the NORKs instead.

MOW is largely a privately funded charity . You can find hundreds of examples where a reduction in the rate of spending increases is called a draconian cut .Sooner or later either the budget is balanced or much more draconian steps are required. Much better to borrow Chinese money that our grandkids will repay I guess .

Tom, there is no need for us to don the hair shirts. We know which end of society that debt is going to fall.

[paraclete]

T

You're joking right ? Now who's running from the mouth ? The Marshall Plan aid was divided amongst the participant states on a roughly per capita basis so the Greek share was per capita about the same as other nations . In fact ;because of the threat of communist takeover ,Greece and Turkey were the 1st nations addressed by the plan. On March 12, 1947, President Truman addressed Congress and asked for $400 million in economic aid for Greece and Turkey. The real problem is that Greece never took the steps to become a modern economy ;but at the same time did the nanny state game as if it's economy was loaded with cash.

No Tom it is you who is joking, Greece suffered a communist inspired civil war, no opportunity for nation building when you are fighting the US proxy war. Look, not everyone wanted to be an american clone. A wrong decision perhaps but you easily dismiss the real issues, per capita payments don't address the real needs when you have a small population so your largesse didn't offer a real solution. Large numbers of greeks migrated after WWII and it is happening again. The young and skilled leave and you are left with the old, the weak and the unskilled. Your solution is to give such people subsistence level life style and say they didn't develop.

[speechlesstx]

Germany has a higher median age than Greece. I guess their "old, the weak and the unskilled" are more productive than those of Greece.