[excon]

What's to connect? Why are you suddenly seeing a boogeyman in every corner?

Hello again, Steve:

To me it boils down to this.. If you were one of the fellows who furried his brow over what clete said, you'll NEVER connect the dots.. However, if it made your skin crawl, the dots should be obvious.

excon

[talaniman]

Hello tal:

Dot connecting doesn't seem to be something they're gonna do. Oh, they'll connect Michelle Obama and healthy food to socialism, alright, but the facts and figures presented by YOU and what's in the book...

Nahhhh.

excon

Everything is different in there world and you have to understand that they may NOT be as exposed to the same things as we are ex.

Hey, I was trying to connect the dots in your link above but they just aren't there dude. What's to connect? Why are you suddenly seeing a boogeyman in every corner?

I think you grew up in your small town and have never lived in the larger cities, am I correct, speech?

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

To me it boils down to this.. If you were one of the fellows who furried his brow over what clete said, you'll NEVER connect the dots.. However, if it made your skin crawl, the dots should be obvious.

excon

I have no idea what Clete said, I was concerned with what you said and my response.

[speechlesstx]

I think you grew up in your small town and have never lived in the larger cities, am I correct, speech?

A city of 190,000 is not a small town and I grew up as one of maybe 5 white kids in my first six years of school. Our "small town" is larger than 10 state capitals. And Knoxville, TN. What's the relevance, I'm some country bumpkin?

P.S. I still reside as a minority in that same minority neighborhood.

[excon]

Hello again, Steve:

You're right. It WASN'T in his testimony. It's in the Gore Files.

Check those out, and check out what clete said.

excon

[speechlesstx]

So because the newspaper reported it as "an attack by a Mexican American" then Anslinger actually meant "if they DIDN'T make it illegal, black and Mexican men would be RAPING their white daughters", even though he didn't actually say it. LOL, you're reaching deep buddy. I think that would qualify as a logical fallacy, you can't to your implication from there.

[paraclete]

Hello again, fellows:

Thank you again, for making my point..

Where did we get this garbage?? From you, of course.
Let's just take the above statement... It can be read TWO ways. Somebody could read it, nod their head and furrow their brows and say YES - somebody gets it. Or, you can react by feeling the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, and your skin begin to crawl, because it's racist.

Let me say again, IF your core belief is what cletes core belief is, and the policy you make STEMS from that core belief, you wind up with RACIST law. Thank you again, clete, for making my point. I could NOT have done it myself.

The dots are obvious for the world to see. If you can't connect them now, it's because you don't wanna.

excon

Ex I am not racist but an observer and what I observe is a certain sector of society stands out, not because of race but because of attitude, it may have something to do with race, it might have something to do with disadvantage, but it certainly has a lot to do with rebellion against the values that other sectors of the society hold as valid and reasonable, and as a result of this these people are over represented in prisons. You yourself have said they might be black or brown, to me that means you might be speaking of a number of different races, and I come back to this basic fact, these people are marginalised, as a result they have a bad attitude and from that the rest flows

[excon]

these people are marginalised, as a result thay have a bad attitude and from that the rest flows

Hello again, clete:

Somehow I missed the "they're marginalized" part, and only got the "they're uppity" part... Makes a substantial difference.

excon

[talaniman]

A city of 190,000 is not a small town and I grew up as one of maybe 5 white kids in my first six years of school. Our "small town" is larger than 10 state capitals. And Knoxville, TN. What's the relevance, I'm some country bumpkin?

P.S. I still reside as a minority in that same minority neighborhood.

This has nothing to do with being a bumpkin, lol, the town I grew up in is the same size as yours, but I wanted to point out that you cannot know what another goes through unless you walk in their shoes. Sure I know you are a good guy, but my point is that when you sit in a one world, you may not know what goes on in a different world.

Just suggesting that maybe there is a reason why you cannot connect the dots, or see some boogy men are real.

QUOTE by paraclete;
Ex I am not racist but an observer and what I observe is a certain sector of society stands out, not because of race but because of attitude, it may have something to do with race, it might have something to do with disadvantage, but it certainly has a lot to do with rebellion against the values that other sectors of the society hold as valid and reasonable

,
Please clarify, so we can see what you mean by rebellion against the values of other sectors of the society, so I can see why your elitist mind holds as valuable, and reasonable. Where do you differientiate between race, and attitude that makes a portion of the population so unique, and not as valued as other people.

and as a result of this these people are over represented in prisons.

That seems a bit harsh for attitude to result in prison. WHY?

You yourself have said they might be black or brown, to me that means you might be speaking of a number of different races, and I come back to this basic fact, these people are marginalised, as a result they have a bad attitude and from that the rest flows.

So HOW do they get margialized is my question, and by whom, and why? I mean what's a bad attitude that lands you in jail in Australia?

[cdad]

Man you guys are teetering on the edge with this topic. Having lived through much of what is being talked about. I don't see any connection to the real world that people live in and the way it is being discussed here.

The real truth is that deep at heart we are all pretty much the same. We all have choices to make. For the black families when I was growing up there was a duality and for many other cultures there was the same duality that had their lives going in 2 directions at once. The public eye and the private one. I have experienced both sides from many different backgrounds. Are there some cultural differences in the public eye. Yes you bet there is. But behind closed doors no not really. It is that difference that is driving the prison populations to be what they are. When the peoples decide as a group to straighten out the mess they are in then it will stop. Until then you can spin it any way you like and life goes on just the way it really is.

[TUT317]

[QUOTE=tomder55;3049457 So the premise that somehow the laws regarding illegal drugs are the equivalence of Jim Crow laws is a grotesque fallacy.[/QUOTE]


Hi Tom,

Could be, but the idea of separate but equal always lends itself to social economic and legal opportunities favouring one group over another. This is historically true and has gone under a number of names in the past. "Living apart" in South Africa is the most obvious example.

My above observation really means very little, except for the fact that I accidentally came across this.

War on Drugs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia needs to be treated carefully in some areas, but can anyone explain away the section on 'Sentincing Disparity'. I am interested in the 100 to 1 disparity.

If no one can explain this away then I can see what Ex, and possibly Alexander are on about.

Tut

[tomder55]

Please explain how race becomes a determinant that someone would break the law ? Perhaps the difference between myself and the liberal crowd is that I look at people as individuals instead of groups . As I recall MLK spoke of that also.

[TUT317]

Please explain how race becomes a determinant that someone would break the law ?

Hi Tom,

I don't need to explain how race has become a determinant factor in braking the law because from my point of view it is not a factor.

That's not the question I am asking. I was asking about the disparity in sentencing.

Perhaps the difference between myself and the liberal crowd is that I look at people as individuals instead of groups . As I recall MLK spoke of that also.

I am sure you do. But, again I don't see how this is relevant.


Tut

[tomder55]

You did not suggest that sentencing was now the issue under discussion . The Wiki link did not give me an indication that the discussion had shifted to sentencing .

My position on that for years is that sentencing needs serious reform . A user is not as big a problem as a dealer . A non-violent offender is not as big a problem as a violent one.

[TUT317]

You did not suggest that sentencing was now the issue under discussion . The Wiki link did not give me an indication that the discussion had shifted to sentencing .

My position on that for years is that sentencing needs serious reform . A user is not as big a problem as a dealer . A non-violent offender is not as big a problem as a violent one.

Hi Tom,

Sorry about the lack of notice.

If the link is accurate then I am interested as to why it is the case that a drug of choice for a particular socio-economic group. Crack cocaine in this case receives much harsher sentences for offenders. The same drug in a different form is the drug of choice for the more affluent. Offenders tend to attract a much lighter sentence.

Why the disparity? Is this what Ex and Alexander are on about?

Tut

[TUT317]

Sorry about the tough questions but you don't have to be a lawyer to see a link between 'disparity of sentencing' and 'separate but equal'

Tut

[tomder55]

What I would like to see is the proof that the sentencing guidelines suggest institutional racism. If we are talking sentencing reform ,I'm all for it. But do I think that crack cocaine sale or possession should be legalized... absolutely not.

And ,this is not a separate but equal issue. Anyone who is caught selling or using crack cocaine is subject the same sentencing . What is Ex and the author suggesting,, that whitey is going into the "ghetto" (Excon's word) and pushing crack and forcing anyone to use it ?
There is a case to be made for reforms of existing drug laws ,and it's been forwarded on this forum many times. This race argument is grasping at straw.

[excon]

Hello Tut:

The sentencing disparity you found is only the outward manifestation of the racism built into the system. You can imagine, can you not, just how much racism is simmering under the surface, if we have the temerity to actually SENTENCE black offenders too much longer prison terms than we do to WHITE offenders who use the SAME amount of cocaine?

excon

[tomder55]

Ex ,you have not until your last comment suggested that the problem was sentencing disparity . Your position is the make it all legal . If your position is to end sentencing disparity I'm on board .However ,I would also point out that there is no penalty for someone who doesn't break the law.

[excon]

And ,this is not a separate but equal issue. Anyone who is caught selling or using crack cocaine is subject the the same sentencing .

Hello again, tom:

Since we've began, I've been showing you DOTS, hoping that you'll connect them.. Ain't happening...

TUT just showed you a DOT - a real simple DOT to confirm, too. Yet you didn't. Your argument SOUNDS like it, too. So, I'm going to throw down a gauntlet for you. I challenge you to learn about the disparity in sentencing between the SAME amount of cocaine in ROCK form, (preferred by blacks), and the same amount of cocaine in POWDER form, (preferred by whites).

It's hard to argue when your correspondents are ignorant of the law.

excon