[talaniman]

Mandating rules for businesses to follow is the governments job. Has nothing to do with the church, just when the church does business in the realm of the government regulation.

Sure they do good works, and when they charge for them, or pay workers for their services, then they have to follow the law, or not do it. Just like everyone else. They should have gone further and mandated child molesters be turned over to the law, but whose perfect?

But I guess churches are people too?

[excon]

big difference between prohibitting activity and mandating activity .

Hello tom:

It's true.. The government tells us how to behave.. I don't like it either.

But, as an employer, I am prohibited by law from discriminating against women. It seems to me, that not covering women's health care, while covering men's is a violation of LOTS of laws, including the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment...

Plus, how can you support the government interfering with MY religious liberty by NOT allowing me to smoke MY sacrament?

excon

[tomder55]

Ex ,I already stated that I would support that .It is no different than the exemption for peyote.

[speechlesstx]

The answer to your original question is yes, according to... Michelle Obama.

“It’s kind of like church,” Obama said. “Our faith journey isn’t just about showing up on Sunday for a good sermon and good music and a good meal. It’s about what we do Monday through Saturday as well, especially in those quiet moments, when the spotlight’s not on us, and we’re making those daily choices about how to live our lives.

“We see that in the life of Jesus Christ. Jesus didn’t limit his ministry to the four walls of the church,” she said. “He was out there fighting injustice and speaking truth to power every single day. He was out there spreading a message of grace and redemption to the least, the last, and the lost. And our charge is to find Him everywhere, every day by how we live our lives.”

But wait, her husband and his HHS Secretary ruled that only what happens within the confines of “the four walls of the church” is all Jesus should be concerning himself with, not getting out into the world and ministering to "the least, the last and the lost" - that's the government's job. Maybe they should talk more and get their message straight.

[Wondergirl]

ministering to "the least, the last and the lost" - that's the government's job. Maybe they should talk more and get their message straight.

I thought I am the government. It's my tax dollars at work doing some of that ministering to the "least among us."

[tomder55]

No ,if you compel others to do what you define as their share of good works then you are not doing God's work .When Mary M poured expensive perfumes on Jesus' feet Judas was outraged and made a judgement on the social injustice of the waste of the expensive perfumes. Jesus did not take his bait . He told Judas what many would consider and inconsiderate ,and uncompassionate statement . He told him that there would always be poor people .
You see human definititions of injustice really don't cut it. I think as an example that the government allowing the systematic slaughter of babies by the 100s of thousand a year is NOT social justice.. Yet I find that progressive Christians who speak loudest about social justice rarely agree with me .

[TUT317]

You see human definititions of injustice really don't cut it.

Tom, human definitions of justice and injustice have to cut it-we have no choice in the matter.

We all know virtue has its own rewards. Following the moral law defines the character of the person, but when we apply the moral law to specific social situations we are forced to implement secular solutions.

Age old problem going back to the Ancient Greeks.

Tut

[tomder55]

Tom, human definitions of justice and injustice have to cut it-we have no choice in the matter.

We all know virtue has its own rewards. Following the moral law defines the character of the person, but when we apply the moral law to specific social situations we are forced to implement secular solutions.

Age old problem going back to the Ancient Greeks.

Tut

Yes ,however Jesus did not teach to society or to government . He taught to the individual .He gave individuals a blueprint for their own salvation.

[NeedKarma]

Yes ,however Jesus did not teach to society or to government . He taught to the individual .He gave individuals a blueprint for their own salvation.

You're not going to have us believe that you follow the teachings of Jesus are you?

[tomder55]

I certainly don't follow your 'humans are god 'views.

[TUT317]

I certainly don't follow your 'humans are god 'views.

I think the quote goes something like this:

Give unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and give unto God the things that are God's.

That would include taxes.

[tomder55]

Yes ,taxes are a legitimate function of government. Being taxed by the government for charity does not make that person virtuous.

[TUT317]

yes ,taxes are a legitimate function of government. Being taxed by the government for charity does not make that person virtuous.

But, the government isn't a person- is it?

[TUT317]

yes ,taxes are a legitimate function of government. Being taxed by the government for charity does not make that person virtuous.

Hang on, Or do you mean the person paying the taxes is not acting in a virtuous manner?

Tut

[tomder55]

Governments are given authority to establish laws that govern humans on earth. Jesus' message was for individual salvation .Being taxed to contribute to a top down redistribution doesn't encourage giving from the heart out of love. It replaces the savior with the government as the savior. We individually give charity and await the return of the savior ;where only then perfect justice will be restored.

[NeedKarma]

Being taxed to contribute to a top down redistribution ...

But that's exactly what ALL taxes do.

[tomder55]

And ? Yes that is true and completely irrelevant .The issue is this notion that taxing authority at any level can be justified as a Christian act.
The President and the First Lady have both invoked it recently .Speechless linked to Michelle Obama's comments .
The President went to the National Prayer Breakfast and claimed he would raise taxes on the rich because rich should pay more not only because “I actually think that is going to make economic sense, but for me as a Christian, it also coincides with Jesus’s teaching that ‘for unto whom much is given, much shall be required,”
So in his view ,forcing the rich to pay more is the Christian thing to do . He thinks it's a WWJD thing to compel charity. Well no where in the scriptures do I read Jesus forcing anyone to do anything. As much as the President thinks he is doing the Christian thing ;he is wrong.

[NeedKarma]

and ? yes that is true and completely irrelevent .

No it isn't - you're just picking and choosing the taxes you don't like and finding some excuse for it. Which is basically the very definition of Cafeteria Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[talaniman]

I don't think you fairly represent his views, nor do I agree that being forced to pay more taxes is accurate either. I think a good person in position of authority would govern for ALL the people and not just the few.

We sure don't want one church or another to govern people, but we don't want the people to be separated from the church of their choice. Charity comes as the spirit moves you, and is self defined, but governance comes from the collective consensus of all the people.

Taxes are but a vehicle to work for the collective good, and when circumstances change the taxes must change, and when things are good taxes should be lowered, but in times of crisis or need, they must go higher to meet the need.

It's the inflexibility that slows down the need to make proper adjustments that benefit us all. And its in times of need that the church plays its greatest role. The church can't govern, but it can administer good. The government can't minister, but they can govern equally to its people. It's the balances that are out of wack!

That's where the president sits as he weighs the needs of the few, against the needs of the many.

[tomder55]

The social justice Christians aren't ? I'd say they are worse because they distort the scriptures. But primarily my stance on taxes comes from the Constitutional restraints ,and that to me is the indicator if a tax is valid. As for me being a cafeteria Christian... maybe I am... but not on this issue.