[tomder55]

It means that certain behaviors are rights. In our Constitutional system there is no guarantee of outcome. None of our rights are dependent on the actions of others ;or the government . My rights do not impose an obligation on anyone else... be it my fellow taxpayers ,or some doctor who is forced to give me services for free or below market value .

[TUT317]

It means that certain behaviors are rights. In our Constitutional system there is no guarantee of outcome. None of our rights are dependent on the actions of others ;or the government . My rights do not impose an obligation on anyone else....be it my fellow taxpayers ,or some doctor who is forced to give me services for free or below market value .

Hi Tom,

I get it. I'm a bit slow on the uptake this morning.

Paul and yourself are making the distinction between rights and entitlements. Entitlements might be a legal obligation of society to provide goods and services. Provided these goods and services are subject to legal definitions and are enforceable in a court of law.

Rights on the other hand are a type of 'paralegal' term (for the want of a better word). They are natural rights of people and exist by nature over and above entitlement law. These natural rights are not subject to the whims of the legal process.

As you are no doubt aware this idea goes back to Locke and the rights of people that existed before there was an organized society to grant people these rights.

Tut

[excon]

My rights do not impose an obligation on anyone else....be it my fellow taxpayers ,or some doctor who is forced to give me services for free or below market value .

Hello tom:

Couple things... As we've discussed, the 9th Amendment speaks of "other" rights that are maintained by the people... So, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss health care as a right...

Do you believe you have a right to have a fire put out in your house, even if it forces firemen to provide their services at BELOW market rates? Would it be better for each homeowner to hire his OWN fire company? Then you'd be paying market rates.

Why is putting out a fire in your stomach different than putting one out in your house?

excon

[tomder55]

You are speaking of local laws and not ones imposed by the national government . So national laws do not apply in that case... although it could be argued that police and fire services are constitutional in the preambles goal of ' provide for the common defence'.

But I lean towards the 2nd argument . There are some communities that pay a salary to fire fighters and some like my town that provides equipment and relies on volunteers for the service. We as a community make that choice without the interference of the national government .

As we've discussed, the 9th Amendment speaks of "other" rights that are maintained by the people...

Yes we could debate that amendment and it's meaning . Suffice it to say that if it requires the government taking property (money) from someone else, to distribute to me ,for me to have that service ,then it is not a right.

[excon]

provide for the common defence Suffice it to say that if it requires the government taking property (money) from someone else, to distribute to me ,for me to have that service ,then it is not a right.

Hello again, tom:

The defense of the nation requires that money be taken from some and distributed to others. I don't see health care as different.

excon

[TUT317]

Yes we could debate that amendment and it's meaning . Suffice it to say that if it requires the government taking property (money) from someone else, to distribute to me ,for me to have that service ,then it is not a right.

Hi Tom,

I'd say that is exactly what it means. If you are talking about ' other rights maintained by the people', then I would say you are talking about entitlements. But again, it depends what you mean by 'rights'. We know what we mean be entitlements. Some people would argue that rights are the same as entitlements.

Tut