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    johnzule's Avatar
    johnzule Posts: 17, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Feb 21, 2007, 11:22 PM
    Pressure losses
    How much pressure is lost when a fire hose is at the top of a long 100 meter ladder? If it comes out of the hose at 63 bar (at street level) how much pressure is lost by raising it 100 meters?

    I'm confused about a few things: in a sealed container the pressure is the same everywhere - up down left right - in a hose (when the tap is ON but the nozzle is OFF (water (pressure) builds up in the hose but no water appears) when I twist the nozzle ON, water bursts out generally at a constant pressure. It doesn't matter where I am in the garden it's consistent - but what happens if I raise the hose - does the pressure drop? Or is the pressure maintained because it is a (nearly) sealed container?


    I found this Fire apparatus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Telescopic aerial platforms can reach heights of over 328 feet (over 100 meters). However, most of them are designed to reach the height of approx. 100 feet (33 meters)


    Firehose - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The usual working pressure of a firehose can vary between 8 bar and 20 bar ((0.8 to 2.0 MPa), while its bursting pressure can be up to 63 bar (6.3 MPa). (This level of pressure emitted by the hose can actually break in a weaker brick wall.)

    Thank you
    John
    Capuchin's Avatar
    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #2

    Feb 22, 2007, 12:51 AM
    Hi and thanks for the question

    I believe you need to consider hydrostatic pressure

    If you assume there is 63bar at street level, you can use this equation to work out the loss in pressure as you raise it up by 100 meters.

    Hope this helps! :)
    johnzule's Avatar
    johnzule Posts: 17, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Feb 22, 2007, 09:54 PM
    Pascal's law
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In the physical sciences, Pascal's law or Pascal's principle states that the fluid pressure at all points in a connected body of an incompressible fluid at rest, which are at the same absolute height, are the same, even if additional pressure is applied on the fluid at some place.

    The hose with the nozzle shut is fluid at rest, and at all points the pressure is the same (Pascals law). What I have learned that I didn't understand before is: "which are at the same absolute height".

    This "height" of 100 meters is a water column which must take into account hydrostatic pressure - hence we will have a drop in pressure. The fire hose must have a lot more pressure to squirt the water out the other end of the hose which is 100 meters up, than it would to project it sideways at street level.

    That's what I didn't understand and I've muddled my way to find: pressure is equal at all points "up down left right" (Pascal's law) but does NOT include "height" because height introduces another factor called Hydrostatic pressure.

    Am I in the ball park:-)

    Regards
    John
    Capuchin's Avatar
    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #4

    Feb 23, 2007, 12:45 AM
    You are understanding it well, which is absolutely fantastic to hear.

    Now if you want a numerical estimate, you can go one step further and use the hydrostatic formula from the article:



    here you have:
    for water (at 4 degrees C, but it doesn't change very rapidly above this)



    putting this in we find:



    This will be your decrease in pressure from ground level (h=0m) to h=100m

    Your pressure at ground level is 63 bar.
    1 bar = 10^5 Pa = 0.1 MPa
    so
    63 bar = 6,300,000 Pa = 6.3 MPa.

    So your pressure at the top of the hose is
    6300000 Pa - 980000 Pa
    or
    6.3 MPa - 0.98 MPa = 5.32 MPa

    This is equal to 53.2 bar.

    I hope you follow this and you find it helpful. Please feel free to ask if there is anything you haven't understood.
    There are few other factors in real life that would affect this, so this should be close to what you would experience in real life :)
    johnzule's Avatar
    johnzule Posts: 17, Reputation: 1
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    #5

    Feb 23, 2007, 06:17 AM
    wow

    After reading about a million times I started to see the pattern of formula but I'm not used to looking at that language, so I usually avoid it. Numerical.

    I'm very impressed with your answer - it is definitely little g. It's nearly midnight here in Sydney so it's late but I'm urged on.

    63 bar at the bottom
    53.2 bar at the top 100 meters
    approx. 10 bar loss

    hope you don't mind I'd like to talk psi

    1 bar = 14.5 psi
    10 bar = 145 psi
    10 bar is approx. 100 meters
    145 psi = 100 meters
    145 psi loss
    therefore to start with on the ground we need more, if we are going to lose 145 psi, and we still want it to squirt and break down light brick walls - then the pressure to start with would be what, 5 times... 5 x 145 psi = 725 psi :: 10 times = 1450 psi

    so
    63 bar at the bottom (14.5 x 63) = 913 psi at the bottom
    913 -
    53 bar 100 meters up (14.5 x 53) = 768.5 psi at the top
    913 - 768 = 145 psi
    hmm
    it's still 145 psi loss
    that's always encouraging - I'm simply making the same mistake over :)
    so does that mean, to raise water 100 meters = 145 psi = 10 bar = 100 meters


    wow thanks
    John
    Capuchin's Avatar
    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #6

    Feb 23, 2007, 06:22 AM
    It will always be the same loss, the loss is due to the gravitational pull on the body of water (which is always the same). You can see this by looking at the formula

    is constant for water
    g is constant
    h is constant as long as you are always talking about 100 meters
    so P, the drop in pressure, is always constant, independent of your pressure at the bottom of the pipe.

    I hope that the equation is satisfactorily correct for real life situations.

    You're not making any mistake, it is a 145 psi loss.

    You want to take the psi you want at the top, add 145 psi to it and that's the psi yuou need at the bottom.
    johnzule's Avatar
    johnzule Posts: 17, Reputation: 1
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    #7

    Feb 23, 2007, 06:59 AM
    Wow again

    Or in another way
    It takes 145 psi to raise water 100 meters
    Capuchin's Avatar
    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #8

    Feb 23, 2007, 07:03 AM
    Yes that will probably be the best way of looking at it for you. :)

    Hope I have been helpful (you can always click the rate this answer button, if I have been helpful)
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    johnzule Posts: 17, Reputation: 1
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    #9

    Feb 23, 2007, 07:21 AM
    can't be that easy...

    If

    1 litre of water = 1 Kg
    and it takes 145 psi to raise water 100 meters
    then does it take 145 psi to raise 1 Kg of water 100 meters
    Capuchin's Avatar
    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #10

    Feb 23, 2007, 07:24 AM
    You can't think of it like that really, you have to think of it like this:

    If you have a length of hose, say 100m.

    you hang it vertically, plug the bottom and put water in the top until it it full.

    when you release the plug, the water will come out at 145psi (at the instant you release the plug, of course when water escapes, the height of water is less and so the pressure is less). This is how the equation is designed to be used.

    But I don't see why you can't do the same thing for your situation of pushing water upwards.

    But the way you're thinking about it is wrong, yes.
    johnzule's Avatar
    johnzule Posts: 17, Reputation: 1
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    #11

    Feb 23, 2007, 07:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Capuchin
    for your situation of pushing water upwards
    What do you mean "for your situation of pushing water upwards":-)
    Capuchin's Avatar
    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #12

    Feb 23, 2007, 07:56 AM
    Well, you're wanting to push some water upwards, right? :p
    johnzule's Avatar
    johnzule Posts: 17, Reputation: 1
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    #13

    Feb 23, 2007, 08:00 AM
    Good
    Yep
    Talk later
    Off to slepp
    Thanks heaps
    John

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