[tomder55]

It's easy... 90 .5 % of fracking involves water and about 9% sand... the rest ,about a half percent is a combination of sodium chloride ,ethylene glycol ,borate salts ,and sodium and potassium carbonates.. all items commenly used in other household and food processing .

The EPA and the Clean Water Act have strict provisions on the recovery and recycling or storage of recovered fracking fluids... and it is not a continuos process. It ends when the shale has been fractured and the natural gas starts being extracted.
"It's our experience in Pennsylvania that we have not had one case in which the fluids used to break off the gas from 5,000 to 8,000 feet (1,500-2,400 m) underground have returned to contaminate ground water." John Hanger, former secretary of the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection .

There have been some cases where methane migration from the fracturing has caused wells to be contaminated . These are rare cases .

[talaniman]

| Water Contamination From Fracking (Hydraulic Fracturing)

The major concern with shale gas drilling is the chemicals used in the process. Because the federal Energy Policy Act of 2005 exempted hydraulic fracturing from regulation under the Safe Drinking Water Act, shale gas drillers don’t have to disclose what chemicals they use. A study conducted by Theo Colburn, PhD, the director of the Endocrine Disruption Exchange in Paonia, Colorado, has so far identified 65 chemicals that are probable components of the fracking fluids used by shale gas drillers. These chemicals included benzene, glycol-ethers, toluene, 2-(2-methoxyethoxy) ethanol, and nonylphenols. All of these chemicals have been linked to health disorders when human exposure is too high.

We have here in Texas more and more rural communitie with toxins so high that the drinking water is flammable.

Scientific Study Links Flammable Drinking Water to Fracking - ProPublica

Flammable drinking water sparks explosions over Barnett Shale drilling TexasVox: The Voice of Public Citizen in Texas

Big Downside to Fracking: Flammable Water | MyFDL

As we see this isn't recent, nor isolated.

[paraclete]

So it's a case of stop the fracking fracking

[talaniman]

No it's a case of more research and development, and a lot more science. But its probably easier, and more profitable to defund the EPA, and a few more agencies.

Bottled water any one?

[paraclete]

T al don't be niaive this is another environment disaster on a grand scale presented to us by the "scientists" who so generously gave us the Bopal disaster, the Gulf disaster, the nuclear meltdowns and so many other failures to assess the risks and take adequate precautions or should we just blame the american way "capitalism" which so many nations have misguidedly adopted. We have this fracking problem here too with vast areas of prime agricultural land at risk all in the name of a safer environment and reduction in CO2

[tomder55]

You are the niaive one .You think windmills and solar panels made with stuff mined near someone else's drinking water is the solution to the 21st century energy needs. You are just another NIMBY.. At least in the US there are some environmental controls . I guess you don't care in the least that some 3rd world nation is getting their raw materials extracted with no safety measures at all.
There is no such a thing as clean energy . All you are doing is exporting the problems elsewhere.

I am willing to bet that any of those environmental problems being identified are mostly ones from the early days of fracking .
The only problems related to drilling are engineering challenges.


I'm looking for energy independence or as close to it as possible. Yeah it makes much more sense to continue to rely on foreign supplies travelling through the gulf of Hormuz ;or strip mined rare earth minerals dominated by another nation that is at best an economic rival .

[TUT317]

Almost all the communities that are affected are basically living in an economic depression and have been for much longer than the 2008 bank failures.
Go ask the people of Ohio ,Western Pennsylvania ,and upstate NY if they want drilling .

Ask them if the want the same economic opportunities that the folks of North

I know there are arguments for and against drilling and I know people want the jobs. It's a good point, but that's not the point I am making.

The question I am asking regards local authorities (rightly or wrongly) making a decision based on local legislature that drilling should not that these local decisions are overturned?

Corporations have the power, influence and money to challenge local and state regulations. Not only do they have the power but they will probably win through in the end.

The question is really about local and state authorities having the power to make their own decisions (again, rightly or wrongly). A good starting point would be to give local authorities some short of chance by getting rid of this,'personhood' nonsense.

Tut

[TUT317]

you are the niaive one .You think windmills and solar panels made with stuff mined near someone elses drinking water is the solution to the 21st century energy needs. You are just another NIMBY .. At least in the US there are some environmental controls .

Hi Tom,

I thought you were against regulations.

P.S. What is a NIMBY?


Tut

[tomder55]

It is silly to say I'm against regulations as if that is an absolute. If that is what you take from my positions then you aren't listening . I've clearly targeted needless and excessive regulations... not ALL regulations .
Good grief... you were the last person I thought I'd have to explain that to.

NIMBY /// not in my back yard .

[tomder55]

Corporations have the power, influence and money to challenge local and state regulations. Not only do they have the power but they will probably win through in the end.

The question is really about local and state authorities having the power to make their own decisions (again, rightly or wrongly). A good starting point would be to give local authorities some short of chance by getting rid of this,'personhood' nonsense.

You are 100 % wrong about that .It is exactly at the local level where the corps often get stopped . I have attended many local meetings where the interests of the people are at odds with the plans of the business interests and more often than not ;when the people attend the local meetings and let their will be known... they prevail.

It is when decisions are made by nameless faceless bureaucrats in Washington is when the will of the people is unheard or ignored .

[talaniman]

Oh geez, the Kochs bought a bunch of candidates in the Carolinas and turned back the clocks on the SCHOOL BOARD, of the largest most progressive, school district in the country. They and a few of their friends, and governors have started all kinds of state uprisings, like in Wisconsin, and Ohio, so don't just look to Washington for blame, without pointing to states and cities with this personhood.

They run the states and cities, and have made inroads into the congress, and are going for the White House, to rig the game in their own favor. Maybe you should look deeper into your own thinking and see they AIN"T on your side either.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_926799.html

What you thought the Kochs just wanted Wisconsin, naw, they want it all even IRAN.

[tomder55]

If the Koch Bros inc are a corporate "person" who don't have rights ,then so are the public employee unions that own the local pols.

By the way ;in your attempt to demonize them you do realize that they are small pototoes compared to Dem corporate sponsors like George Soros and GE (not to mention the companies that the President bought with taxpayer money like GM and their duel auto/ barbecue 21st century electric cars )

[talaniman]

if the Koch Bros inc are a corporate "person" who don't have rights ,then so are the public employee unions that own the local pols.

You would love to make that comparison, but there is none. The Kochs represent their interest, and public unions represent ME! Hard working, blue collar workers, who use to make up the now dwindling middle class to get a FAIR standard of living to raise and educate our families. We are who the Kochs lay off, send our jobs overseas, when they need a few bucks. Hey the locals have to get votes from somewhere to represent OUR interest. Geez Tom, that's the way its supposed to be!!

This is America, NOT Kochland, and rich guys don't run this, THE PEOPLE DO! It doesn't say that all men are equal, and whomever has more money is MORE equal.
When the many serve the few, that slavery, and I know I have told you that on more than a few Occasions.

Now maybe its not right to have a few rich people on our side too, but what's a guy to do? Get rid of YOURS, I get rid of mine, but until then tell your guys to keep there paws off my local election. You conservative slaves crack me up! You get mad when you don't get your way in everything, all the time.

I got to go burn my dishes!

[paraclete]

you are the niaive one .You think windmills and solar panels made with stuff mined near someone elses drinking water is the solution to the 21st century energy needs. You are just another NIMBY .. At least in the US there are some environmental controls . I guess you don't care in the least that some 3rd world nation is getting their raw materials extracted with no safety measures at all.
There is no such a thing as clean energy . All you are doing is exporting the problems elsewhere.

I am willing to bet that any of those environmental problems being identified are mostly ones from the early days of fracking .
The only problems related to drilling are engineering challenges.


I'm looking for energy independence or as close to it as possible. Yeah it makes much more sense to continue to rely on foreign supplies travelling through the gulf of Hormuz ;or strip mined rare earth minerals dominated by another nation that is at best an economic rival .

Decided to have a rant again did we Tom? As far as we are concerned the problems with fracking are ground water contamination and destruction of productive land through salination. Some think this preferrable to digging vast holes in the ground and disturbing the top soil but both processes destroy the agricultural potential of productive areas or pollute the catchment aresa for water supply. Relying on the Gulf of anywhere isn't a problem where I live and rare earths are found in other places.

What in fact you are complaining about are the results of that capitalist free market system you espouse.

The only reason economic rivals exist is that you make them so, they could just as easily be economic partners, however there is no doubt that we need to find new ways to provide our energy needs and the existing methods, both old and new, are not as efficient as we would like.

I would like to see my nation solve this problem by using its vast reserves of uranium. It is a good solution as no other nation's environment is affected.

[TUT317]

if the Koch Bros inc are a corporate "person" who don't have rights ,then so are the public employee unions that own the local pols

Sounds good to me.

However, it will never change because we know who has the most to lose by getting rid of corporate personhood.

btw ;in your attempt to demonize them you do realize that they are small pototoes compared to Dem corporate sponsors like George Soros and GE (not to mention the companies that the President bought with taxpayer money like GM and their duel auto/ barbeque 21st century electric cars )

I thought you said I was 100 percent wrong? This examples makes me less than 100 percent wrong.

Do I have to search through Google to find examples of corporations making legal complaints against some local authority on the basis that the law is violating 'ITS' civil and constitutional rights.

Tut

[talaniman]

The free market capitalistic system is about extracting profits, by any means necessary. They won't pend a dime to make it a SAFE process.

But that's more a reflection of the people who use it, not the system itself. That what they sqwuack about when they say regulations hold them back. Its no secret that they would rather settle wrongful death suits, and pay non compliance fines, than save a few lives, and spend money on safety.

I hope you guys do better Clete.

[paraclete]

The free market capitalistic system is about extracting profits, by any means neccesary. They won't pend a dime to make it a SAFE process.

But thats more a reflection of the people who use it, not the system itself. That what they sqwuack about when they say regulations hold them back. Its no secret that they would rather settle wrongful death suits, and pay non compliance fines, than save a few lives, and spend money on safety.

I hope you guys do better Clete.

Tal, we are just as much caught in this mesh as you are. All we hear here is the market mechanism and how it solves problems, why it is going to reduce carbon emissions by 80%, provide new industries, full employment, innovation and lead us into a utopian future and if that doesn't do it then new and innovative taxes will.. .

But we are seeing a move for a moritorium on fracking, moves to restore the Murray-Darling which will mean less water for big cotton and intensive agriculture and the opening of uranium mines

[tomder55]

Don't concern yourself.. I'm sure red Julia is on board with destroying this industry that would not only be a viable alternative to coal ,but would also be a valuable export commodity .
If I was a conspiracy theorists I'd think this ruin of the western economy was intentional .

[talaniman]

It was though Tom, the global ecomomy was ruined by greed. Hey it wasn't my idea to scam everybody, and stuff the loot in their mattresses!

How did they miss you??

[paraclete]

If I was a conspiracy theorists I'd think this ruin of the western economy was intentional .

Well Tom you may well be right, someone must have gained out of this but with the interconnection of economies these days no one can escape the pain. You have yet the realise that unbridled capitalism is the cause coupled with government interference in that market mechanism you love so well..

But Europe is a horse of a different colour, so your conspiracy theory doesn't do so well. No, Tom, we will just have to agree we did this, no, you did this to yourselves. I blame the political system because when it comes down to it, it is impotent.

On the other hand a nicely controlled economy sits a beacon in these troubled times but you keep to your tired views, they have served you well