[excon]

Hello:

In regards to George W. Bush LOSING Afghanistan, we now are going to go to war with Pakistan. They have nukes...

Does anyone deny that we could have won in Afghanistan IF George W. Bush knew how? Of course, we could have. We beat half the WORLD! The righty's aren't going to disagree with me because they KNOW our military could have taken that country and shaped it in ANY image that we desired. And, we could have done it the first year.

But, he tiptoed, and got distracted, and had no clue how to prosecute a war! The result is that we LOST! And, it's going to cost us BIGTIME!

What about Obama, you ask.. At least he's TRYING to win, but you can't win a war that was already LOST, and it was LOST in 2003. Now, we're in 5, maybe 6 wars over there, and trying for a few more. Anybody have an accurate count??

Does anybody besides me think this is insane?

excon

[tomder55]

What ? You now favor nation building ? Whodathunkit ?
Afghanistan was "won " early on. What you are complaining about is that the subsequent Taliban insurgency hasn't been defeated .


Before Bush is blamed you should blame Lord Mountbatten.
Pakistan was a disfunctional state at it's construct. All it took was a civil war that cost over a million lives and displaced another 12million+ .
Before that the Brits had a heck of a time trying to administer the subcontinent especially in the Hindu-Kush and what is now Afghanistan.
Now when did Pakistan get nukes ? 1998 I believe.. So add Clintoon to the blame game. It is no secret that the Paki's have played a double game in this... What would you have done ? Invade Pakistan at the outset or try to get them to work with us ? Bush did some heavy armtwisting to get Paki cooperation ;which provided us with the ONLY land route to supply the troops . If you think that Afghanistan was an easy propositon then you have seriously misjudged the reality. Yeah we beat 'half the world' with some heavy assistance and sacrifice by the Russians . We let them do the heavy fighting for 2+ years before we decided to dip our toes into the English channel . After the war it took us 40 years to settle the fate of Western Europe. But that was easy right ? Please...
Yes it took a long term commitment to European freedom just like it will take a long term commitment to Afghan freedom if we are so inclined . We were allies with Russia up until the final bullet was fired in WWII... then we became mortal enemies . Blame Truman.

[excon]

Hello tom:

Do you have to be so damn logical? I want some hysteria.. However, if Bush won the war, how did he lose it shortly thereafter?

excon

[tomder55]

Well we allowed some self determination (I think ) and they had early elections instead of the Iraq mistake of installing a Viceroy from the State Dept.
Who knows where Karzai's loyalties lie ? He probably started on our side and then weighed his prospects and became a fence sitter . Now ? He sees the strong horse in the side that says 'after America leaves ,we will still be there' . Can't say I blame him .

We do make a fundamental miscalculation in Afghanistan because we don't look at it in the context of the greater India-Pakistan conflict. In the Paki eye it is imperitive that they retain their influence in the Afghan governance . They see it as their fallback space should there be total conflict with India. They are also looking at the same calculation that Karzai sees. What happens when the US leaves ?

[smoothy]

Gee... Bush has been out of office almost 3 years now... any blame for what's happened in the 3 years since then is OBAMA's and OBAMA's alone.

[AJ_Hunsucker]

Well don't say that US has conquered Afghanistan. Only 20% of the Afghanistan is under US and its allies control. That is a tribal country. We have failed to understand the ground realities prevailing in this tribal society. We could have won this war without any army.

The fact is we were also playing a double game against pakistan. We were beating Taliban but projecting those warlords that were against Pakistan. Hence we were looking cooperating from that country. We were asking for pakistani cooperation but signing Nuclear contracts with its rival country India. Pakistan had to face a loss of $70 in that war. It lost 35000 men in this US war. Even now, they are ready to cooperate with US government. However, Pakistanis want to fight the war in their own way. They know the area and the Tribal leaders.

If USA could not control Afghanistan completely, how they would be able to get with Pakistan. Even after so many sacrifices and more than 60 years of working relationship, US government is not ready to trust Pakistan. A country which is ready to cooperate. Remember US trusts Idia more than Pakistan.

US wants pakistan to act like a puppet. It is not possible for anyone to give any results in that kind of environment. Obviously, it will irritate them if you want them to secure US interests but leave their own.

[tomder55]

but signing Nuclear contracts with its rival country India.

Remember US trusts Idia more than Pakistan.

Of course we do and for good reason . It never made much sense to me even under cold war reality that we were aligned with Pakistan over India.
For many geopolitical reasons it makes more sense for us to be aligned with India. India may very well be the most important democracy on the planet . India may very well be a nuclear power but they have not been a proliferation nation like we know the Pakis were (are ?) .

As I said ;it took some heavy arm twisting by Bush to get any degree of cooperation with the Pakistan government... You will recall Bush's early rhetoric about 'with us or against us' was clearly a message for their leadership.
And as you are well aware ,the ISI and their military harbored and gave sanctuary to Bin Laden for a decade.

Let's be real here . The tribal boots on the ground that we used were the Northern Alliance . A group aligned with India prewar... not Pakistan .The ISI created the Taliban and the Taliban ;especially the Hakkani clan has always represented the interests of the Pakistani state.

[AJ_Hunsucker]

India's democracy is quite debatable. That democracy has voilated international law and UN resolutions again and again. Nearly half of its states are demanding freedom from India. Right now, that "democracy" is not allowing any journalists in Occupied Kashmir where they want to for a documentary program on the missing persons and graves. The "democracy" has been treating the minorities like just like Hitler treated the Jews. Every now a then there are riots against the minorities in this "largest democracy". Where as in Pakistan, such incidents are rare. Government officials (Salman Taseer) have laid their lives to protect minorities. The situation is different (Narinder Moodi) in India.

Again I would say we the US people are not understanding the reality on the ground. Afghanistan is a tribal society. In pakistan there are two two portions of the universe. One pro india and the other one anti India. The Pro India portion of the universe is always evil and considered an enemy of Pakistan. This is how army and people think in that country.

If we want to succeed in Pakistan and Afghanistan, we will have to go with these realities. We can't win pakistan's hearts for India. This is the job that Indians have to do themselves. We must confess that buss government has been dealing with pakistan in a very wrong way. They were asking pakistan to fight against taliban but signing nuclear agreements with India. That definitely created doubts in Pakistan's minds. If we want a cooperation from them, we will have to cool down our romance with India for a few years. Believe me they will fight free for USA.

[paraclete]

What sort of strawman is this EX, war with Pakistan, you don't even know where it is for sure. You have been at war with Pakistan for ten years and guess what, you paid for it.

[tomder55]

Occupied Kashmir.......The "democracy" has been treating the minorities like just like Hitler treated the Jews.... that exposes your belief more than I can.

Where as in Pakistan, such incidents are rare.
Bwahaaaahaaahaaa. Karachi is a warzone of ethnic violence and persecution.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14582479

Hundreds of people have been killed in Karachi in recent months, in one of the worst waves of violence there in years.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/...128151643.html

Perhaps the Indians don't like the war the Pakis are engaging on India through their surrogates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novembe...Mumbai_attacks

Forgive them for fighting back against the attacks against their nation by the Pakis.

[paraclete]

Occupied Kashmir.......The "democracy" has been treating the minorities like just like Hitler treated the Jews.... that exposes your belief more than I can.

Now Tom you know the Hindus don't like people of another persuasion, in this case Muslims

Where as in Pakistan, such incidents are rare.

And you know Muslims don't like people of another persuasion

Perhaps the Indians don't like the war the Pakis are engaging on India through their surrogates Forgive them for fighting back against the attacks against their nation by the Pakis.

Tom you know there is an unresolved war between the Indians and the Pakistani's, some part of it is over the forced inclusion of the Kasmiri Muslims in India and a lot of it is left over hatred over the partition creating the artificial country of Pakistan. Both states are nuclear states because they don't trust each other

Why don't we all come out in the open and say what we mean, the Pakistani's have been playing the US for suckers and both sides against the middle very successfully

[tomder55]

I'm glad this discussion has evolved to the basic issue of the AfPakia conflict. OBL exploited tensions there to get a safe haven to plan his jihadists attacks on the US. In exchange AQ fighters attacked India in Kashmir and worked with the ISI in coordinated attacks against India.
The Pakis cannot win a conventional war so they are in bed with terrorism.

[paraclete]

I'm glad this discussion has evolved to the basic issue of the AfPakia conflict. OBL exploited tensions there to get a safe haven to plan his jihadists attacks on the US. In exchange AQ fighters attacked India in Kashmir and worked with the ISI in coordinated attacks against India.
The Pakis cannot win a conventional war so they are in bed with terrorism.

Are you saying the US hasn't exploited Pakistan? Pakistan is certainly in bed with the forces who oppose the US in Afghanistan. It is very hard to be for something and against it at the same time however the Pakistani's have done it successfully. India has been very patient with Pakistan, this might be because they have a large Muslim population but in any event both nations would be well served by a rapid exit of the US, NATO, Australia, etc from Afghanistan. Please, no sniviling over the fate of the Afghan people.

[tomder55]

Only in so far as what might have been .The Paki's claim Karzai is an Indian agent... Hard to believe that a Pashtun would have such loyalities. I think it's just another deception in the 'Great Game' .

[AJ_Hunsucker]

"partition creating the artifical country of Pakistan"

This is the mindset that demands attention of the world. This is where the problem lies. US is wasting its energies in Afghanistan. We need to get India on the right track. A US support to that kind of Indian approach will never ever get any cooperation from Pakistan against terrorism. Remember, in the last 60-65 years, Pakistanis always cooperated with US in a very very friendly way. It became a half hearted cooperation since we started a romance with India.

Every country has the right to defend itself. Majority of the indians including the indian government have not accepted the reality of Pakistan. That mind set pushes pakistan to these Jihadis. Even now, we should not push them with the wall. If we convince India to deal with Pakistan and the Kashmiris, the whole region and then the world at large will come to peace.

[paraclete]

"partition creating the artifical country of Pakistan"

This is the mindset that demands attention of the world. This is where the problem lies. US is wasting its energies in Afghanistan. We need to get India on the right track. A US support to that kind of Indian approach will never ever get any cooperation from Pakistan against terrorism. Remember, in the last 60-65 years, Pakistanis always cooperated with US in a very very friendly way. It became a half hearted cooperation since we started a romance with India.

Every country has the right to defend itself. Majority of the indians including the indian government have not accepted the reality of Pakistan. That mind set pushes pakistan to these Jihadis. Even now, we should not push them with the wall. If we convince India to deal with Pakistan and the Kashmiris, the whole region and then the world at large will come to peace.

What is your solution; create the independent state of Kashmir? We both know it would quickly become a Pakistani satellite. Pakistan is an artificial construct, The Pustun don't really want to be part of Pakistan and are really more trouble than they are worth and traditionally they weren't part of India. The Punjabi would really like their own state, remember Pakistan originally included Bangladesh, a typically British nonsense as was Kashmir, letting a Hindu decide the fate of a Muslim population. Look at how many trouble spots we have had because of the British policy of partition.

[AJ_Hunsucker]

Well US have to win that war out of these situations. Definitely, if Kashmiris don't want to live with India, the indians must read the writing of the wall. However, my point is we can't get enthusiastic cooperation from pakistan if we continue our romance with India. I have spent a few months in Afghanistan (before 9/11). Not to speak of pakistani pushtuns, even Afghani pashtuns can be called "pro" pakistan. However, case is different with the northern cities of Afghanistan. Again, we need a victory in the war against terrorism. Definitely, that victory is not possible without pakistan. As a muslim state, it can help us more than any other country under the sun.

[paraclete]

Well US have to win that war out of these situations. Definitely, if Kashmiris don't want to live with India, the indians must read the writing of the wall. However, my point is we can't get enthusiastic cooperation from pakistan if we continue our romance with India. I have spent a few months in Afghanistan (before 9/11). Not to speak of pakistani pushtuns, even Afghani pashtuns can be called "pro" pakistan. However, case is different with the northern cities of Afghanistan. Again, we need a victory in the war against terrorism. Definitely, that victory is not possible without pakistan. As a muslim state, it can help us more than any other country under the sun.

I think you miss the point, victory is not possible in Afghanistan, it is the graveyard of many armies. Having spent a little time in Pakistan I know it is not far off being a failed state, only US aid has been holding it up.

The only victory you need in the war on terror you have already obtained, you have prosecuted OBL and broken the Al Qaeda hold in Afghanistan, more than that you could not realistically hope for. The US didn't learn the lesson of Vietnam, it didn't learn from the Russian experience in Afghanistan.

Pakistan is really only interested in maintaining its influence in Afghanistan and they know long term this is not dependent upon the US

[tomder55]

Pakistan is really only interested in maintaining its influence in Afghanistan and they know long term this is not dependent upon the US

Certainly not in the time line the President has constructed. Even if it was the plan to cut and run ,why would you construct a billboard proclaiming it ?

[paraclete]

BO has to be seen to earn that Nobel prize and it looks good on the election platform if you have brought the troops home. He knows the war cannot be won, so an exit with good order is called for, just as it is in Iraq.