[paraclete]

You are being very selective in your views.

Affirmative action is a government saying we are going to force you to change your views and actions, to take an action you would not ordinarily take. What remained after slavery was overthrown was racial discrimination because you can legislate labour laws but you can't legislate thought patterns

When it comes to slavery you have to look beyond forced labour, maintaining low wages is a form of slavery. What was overthrown was the idea of forced labour, the idea that one person could have property rights over another but what was not overthrown was the idea that one person could exploit another, this remains endemic

[TUT317]

You are being very selective in your views.

Affirmative action is a government saying we are going to force you to change your views and actions, to take an action you would not ordinarily take. What remained after slavery was overtrown was racial discrimination because you can legislate labour laws but you can't legislate thought patterns

Hi Clete,

Affirmative action cannot force you to change your VIEWS, but it can force you to change your ACTIONS. Anyone can hold whatever views they like when it comes to race and religion. The only thing you can't do is act on some of these views in a discriminative way.

This was one of the points I was trying to make throughout this thread.

I may well practice gender discrimination. For example, I may refuse to talk to women in the work place and I may well prefer the company of only men in the lunch room. At morning tea, lunch and afternoon tea. But there is nothing illegal about my actions. I may well be considered wrong, immature, silly but my actions are not abhorrent.

If on the other hand, I practise racial discrimination in the work place then my views are illegal and many would say abhorrent as well. In both cases no one can make anyone change their views, we can only make them change their actions if the behaviour is deemed serious enough.

When it comes to slavery you have to look beyond forced labour, maintaining low wages is a form of slavery. What was overthrown was the idea of forced labour, the idea that one person could have property rights over another but what was not overthrown was the idea that one person could exploit another, this remains endemic

Yes, this is true. I guess we could say that it is attempt to change the behaviour. As you point out in doing so we don't necessarily change the attitude.

Tut

[paraclete]

Hi Clete,

Affirmative action cannot force you to change your VIEWS, but it can force you to change your ACTIONS. Anyone can hold whatever views they like when it comes to race and religion. The only thing you can't do is act on some of these views in a discriminative way.

This was one of the points I was trying to make throughout this thread.

I may well practice gender discrimination. For example, I may refuse to talk to women in the work place and I may well prefer the company of only men in the lunch room. at morning tea, lunch and afternoon tea. But there is nothing illegal about my actions. I may well be considered wrong, immature, silly but my actions are not abhorrent.

If on the other hand, I practise racial discrimination in the work place then my views are illegal and many would say abhorrent as well. In both cases no one can make anyone change their views, we can only make them change their actions if the behaviour is deemed serious enough.




Yes, this is true. I guess we could say that it is attempt to change the behaviour. As you point out in doing so we don't necessarily change the attitude.

Tut

Hi Tut

Really there is a difference between affirmative action and anti-discrimination. Anti-discrimination makes discrimation on the basis or race, religion, gender, etc illegal and open to civil action. In other words the remedy lies in resort to the Law.

Affirmative action goes much further and requires that even though you may not discrimate you must actively discriminate on favour of certan groups, race, gender, ethnicity or culture so that even if they are not the best qualified they will be selected because you are meeting an imposed quota often much higher than the general representation of these groups in the population. This is basically unfair and can result in a dumbing down because of lower educational standards. Fortunately we are relatively free of it here and it is largely confined to government or the indigenous sector

[TUT317]

Hi Tut

really there is a difference between affirmative action and anti-discrimination. Anti-discrimination makes discrimation on the basis or race, religion, gender, etc illegal and open to civil action. In other words the remedy lies in resort to the Law.

Yes, you are correct. I was using the term in its broadest sense. In the end I was 'stuck' for a way to draw the broader issues together.
But good observation.

Affirmative action goes much further and requires that even though you may not discrimate you must actively discriminate on favour of certan groups, race, gender, ethnicity or culture so that even if they are not the best qualified they will be selected because you are meeting an imposed quota often much higher than the general representation of these groups in the population. This is basicly unfair and can result in a dumbing down becuase of lower educational standards. Fortunately we are relatively free of it here and it is largely confined to government or the indigenous sector

Again, you are largely correct. I can understand your complaint if the situation arises whereby a university sets aside a certain number of places for a minority group and such entry is below the recommended standard.

However, it is not the case that these students sit a dumbed down medical exam while the brighter students sit for the proper exam. Not in this country anyway. I would also dispute any claim that such examinations are dumbed down for everybody. Again, not in this country. Australian universities enjoy a highly respected reputation worldwide in terms of the quality of graduate turned out.

Setting aside lower entry status is not that radical in universities these days. Such things as mature age entry and accreditation based on life experience seems to be the norm.

Tut

[smoothy]

Hello smoothy:

The problem with your thinking, is that there was slavery, and then there wasn't... And everybody lived happily every after...

But, there's a lot of stuff that happened AFTER slavery ended that affirmative action is designed to rectify. You're ignoring it.. I dunno why. Maybe it makes your point.. But, not really, because the people you're arguing with HAVE a memory. Why do right wingers have selective memory??

excon

Doesn't matter... what you are talking about are people with issues THEY need to deal with and refuse to... and instead expect to screw the rest of us.

I am talking about people with personal issues... I won't go so far as claiming they are brain damaged.. because most aren't.

They are just too damn lazy to do the work it takes everyone else to do.

They for the most part refuse to study in school... whoes fault is that? Theirs

They for the most part prefer to not apply themselves and instead blame others. Whoes fault is that? Theirs.

THey for the most part expect things handed to them without working for them. Who's fault is that? THeirs.

They think its cool and drop out of High school to hang aout at all ours and play hoodlum. Dress like slobs... talk like they never went to school and then complain they can't get a $100K a year job right off the street.
Who's fault is that? Theirs.

Now the Democrats think they should get everything handed to them on a silver platter... and get any job they want... despite lacking the education, or experience... for no other reason than their skin color.

Because heaven forbid, they pick up a shovel, wash dishes or do anything that requires labor... like anyone else has to do.


And they bellyache about how there are no jobs in the inner city. Well, the Illegals seem to find lots of work... to the tune of well over 12 million of them.

As far as I'm concerned... and LOTS of others are too... this is 2011. Not 1911. Get over it already.

[excon]

Hello again, smoothy:

I don't know how you can spew so much hatred in so little time.. It must take practice.

excon

[talaniman]

So Clete once they get into college they don't have to go to the same classes as the rest of the first year college students? They don't have to make the same grades? Or when they get into the work force the boss doesn't require they do the work? I don't see the standard being lowered to meet quotas, but you imply the don't deserve to even have the opportunity to an education, job, or contract, and that's very much what affirmative action gives them, a chance that you would not.

What about the dumb lazy kid who gets accepted to a nice university because his rich daddy and even richer granddaddy went there? That's fair too isn't it? Did they dumb things down for him? No they paid some smart poor guy to do his homework and get his grades up. What about getting a contract while competing with a bigger company whose golf buddy needs something built?

You listen to guys like smoothy and you will hear nothing but hate and resentments, as he broad brushes everybody who doesn't have what he does as there fault, and even you on a smaller level show some resentment to those you consider lesser.

Actually, affirmative action is made for people like you two, who would dismiss and discriminate against others. I think you have shown you would discriminate if you could, if you had they opportunity too.

That would be as ugly as the system you hate so much.

[smoothy]

Hello again, smoothy:

I dunno how you can spew so much hatred in so little time.. It must take practice.

excon

Gee, you are one of the ones arguing Blacks and other minoritys are somehow inferior to the rest of us and NEED affirmative action just to have a chance.

I'm not the one that doesn't think they are equal in capacity or ability.

Anone that thinks a certain group NEEDS an unfair advantage just to "level the playing field" obviously assumes they need that because they aren't the equals of everyone else.

[NeedKarma]

[QUOTE=smoothy;2895494]Gee, you are one of the ones arguing Blacks and other minoritys are somehow inferior to the rest of us and NEED affirmative action just to have a chance.{/quote] Absolute misrepresentation of his position and you know it. Intellectually dishonest. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I'm not the one that doesn't think they are equal in capacity or ability.

Oh really? Here are your words:

They are just too damn lazy to do the work it takes everyone else to do.

They for the most part refuse to study in school....

They for the most part prefer to not apply themselves and instead blame others. ...

THey for the most part expect things handed to them without working for them. ...

They think its cool and drop out of High school to hang aout at all ours and play hoodlum. Dress like slobs...talk like they never went to school and then complain they can't get a $100K a year job right off the street.

[smoothy]

[QUOTE=NeedKarma;2895504]

Gee, you are one of the ones arguing Blacks and other minoritys are somehow inferior to the rest of us and NEED affirmative action just to have a chance.{/quote] Absolute misrepresentation of his position and you know it. Intellectually dishonest. You should be ashamed of yourself.



Oh really? Here are your words:

You have read the statistics for inner city schools haven't you? They speak for themselves. THEY are the ones underperforming... THEY are the ones dropping out... I said they are as capable as anyone else if they got off their butts and worked.

But then... cronyism is endemic with liberals, they all think they are entitled to something for nothing. They love delcaring themselves as a victim... then taking something off someone ELSE that actually earned it to give to the lazy "victim" to right some self induced problem.

Perhaps you would then agree that affirmative action is needed for Rural rednecks that are even more disadvantaged than inner city people are. But I suppose they don't rate because of skin color? More Liberal hypocrisy I see. Or is it really Liberal rascism?

[QLP]

Regardless of anyone's opinion on this how on earth could it be enforced since ugliness is way more subjective than race or gender?

Unless we are all obliged to wear the niqab and full body padding for all job interviews... And maybe use a voice modulator...

[paraclete]

There is always someone who wants to take a debate like this and twist it. When I spoke of dumbing down I wasn't speaking of education but of employment. If you don't take the best qualified candidate you have the risk of dumbing down. Often the requirements for a position are artificial anyway and a person of lesser qualification can easily do what is required, but the requirements are there to set a benchmark or even a barrier to entry and if you have to breach the benchmark because of a quota then your freedom has been infringed. Look at your film industry and the mandatory inclusion of coloured people so you get quite ridiculous outcomes in period settings. It isn't a question of whether they can do the job

Tut you must have observed that in this country organisations dealing with indigenous persons go beyond affirmative action when recruiting and are not challenged but when a church organisation seeks persons of certain persuasions they will be challenged

[talaniman]

Hey Clete, business is about making money, where ever and how ever, and qualifications are subjective to the need to make cold cash. They don't care about quotas, either and if they can market a colored guy to get some green, they will.

What you thought you were more valuable and more qualified than a monkey who gets paid bananas? Think again. The monkey wins, but you are as much a slave as the indigenous rabble you worked so hard to separate from.

We all are Clete, slaves to the system, you just like to think your hard work and qualifications makes you special, or better. You are not, you serve at the discretion of the boss like the rest of us slaves.

[paraclete]

Since you know nothing about me you make assumptions and that only makes an as$ out of you. I long since ceased to be a slave to the system and yes, hard work, and qualifications, lift you above the rabble and should not be denigrated because some minority thinks it should be placed at the head of the queue.

You live in a place where discrimation has been endemic, I don't. When I see the B/S that originated in your place being applied in mine I feel maligned because I have not discriminated in hiring. Opportunities abound here, but all minorities do is whinge about their disadvantage

Therefore Tal I am not a slave and I know that when it comes to making money you take the best qualified. If you want someone who speaks a different language you take that person who speaks that language

[TUT317]

Tut you must have observed that in this country organisations dealing with indigenous persons go beyond affirmative action when recruiting and are not challenged but when a church organisation seeks persons of certain persuasions they will be challenged

Hi Clete,

Yes, there is always that danger if you are talking affirmative action and employment.

I don't know the answer to that. In fact, I don't think there is an answer in terms that will suit everybody. I understand the problem someone would have who applies for a job and it is given to a less qualified person based factors other than merit. It would make them rather angry.

On the other hand everyone deserves and opportunity at employment. At the expense of someone else? I don't know, but I think we have a moral obligation to try in that area.

Affirmative action and racism is a highly complex and controversial topic. In this thread there have been some attempts to give a simplified account of racism and affirmative action that fits neatly into a particular world view. The issues don't lend themselves to this type of analysis.


Tut

[TUT317]

You have read the statistics for inner city schools haven't you? They speak for themselves. THEY are the ones underperforming...THEY are the ones dropping out.... I said they are as capible as anyone else if they got off their butts and worked.

But then.....cronyism is endemic with liberals, they all think they are entitled to something for nothing. They love delcaring themselves as a victim....then taking something off someone ELSE that actually earned it to give to the lazy "victim" to right some self induced problem.

Perhaps you would then agree that affirmative action is needed for Rural rednecks that are even more disadvantaged than inner city people are. But I suppose they don't rate because of skin color? More Liberal hypocracy I see. Or is it really Liberal rascism?

Hi Smoothy,

I can see ( at least I think I can see) why you think affirmative action is a type of racism.

Racism is the belief that a persons race results in inherent differences in ability. Ability to achieve a high I.Q. mark, the ability to maintain constant employment. Yes,even the ability to tolerate extremes in weather conditions.

The important point is the belief that these things cannot be changed because they are encoded in particular groups genes. We could say that a persons genes are the INHIBITING FACTORS when it comes to competing with the rest of society.

To hold such views is of course racist. On this basis affirmative action should be a racist doctrine. After all it discriminates on the basis of a persons race. It looks at different racial groups and discriminates in favour of a group. Right or wrong?

Affirmative action is saying that because of your GENETIC INHIBITING FACTORS you will not compete successfully in society? Therefore we should discriminate against you in a positive rather than negative way? Right or wrong?

I think this is the crux of your affirmative action equals racism position. Again,I think this is what you are saying but I am sure you will correct me if I've got it wrong.

This is a complete misunderstanding of what affirmative action is about. Affirmative actions says the inhibiting factors to achievement are NOT found within the genes of a person or group but ARE FOUND within the structures of society. Big difference here.

On this basis affirmative action is not a form of Liberal racism. It is not any form of racism.


Tut

[talaniman]

Since you know nothing about me you make assumptions and that only makes an as$ out of you. I long since ceased to be a slave to the system and yes, hard work, and qualifications, lift you above the rabble and should not be denigrated because some minority thinks it should be placed at the head of the queue.

You live in a place where discrimination has been endemic, I don't. When I see the B/S that originated in your place being applied in mine I feel maligned because I have not discriminated in hiring. Opportunities abound here, but all minorities do is whine about their disadvantage

Therefore Tal I am not a slave and I know that when it comes to making money you take the best qualified. If you want someone who speaks a different language you take that person who speaks that language

You can't be saying that what we are doing here is screwing up what you do there are you? Why Clete, that makes no sense, and suggests that we here tell you what to do. Doubt it. Its more like you have your own issues as a country to deal with, as do they all, so don't blame what's wrong in your neck of the woods on anyone but yourself. What ever BS being applied there is done by the ones there.

Like my friend smoothy, I bet you don't know enough about minorities to say they are all whiners about there disadvantages, yet you probably have an example or two that you justifies you painting the whole group with thee same brush.

No I don't know you personally, but I have read what you have been writing, and do not agree, big deal, and I call you on it. I have been doing my thing, as long as you have, and my view is much different.

"But for the grace of God go I", and because you escaped the rabble, doesn't mean we can't go back.

[paraclete]

Tut Affirmative action is a form of racism just as it is a form of discrimination. Just because it is government sponsored doesn't make it right. I don't care that universities give some places to those who can't qualify by other means because I know they sink or swim on their own merits, nor do I care that the government spends money training people for jobs they may never get. I do care when the employment of these people is mandated just as I care when the employment of a certain number of migrants is mandated

Tal It may have escaped your notice but ideas like people have an unfortunate habit of migrating and many unwanted ideas arrive on our shores with well meaning experts who just have to tell us about their latest cause or they are brought here by public servants who have had their little junket and have to justify it. We don't have much of a lecture circuit but they come anyway. It is a great shame the traffic never seems to go the other way

[TUT317]

Tut Affirmative action is a form of racism just as it is a form of discrimination. Just because it is government sponsored doesn't make it right. I don't care that universities give some places to those who can't qualify by other means because I know they sink or swim on their own merits, nor do I care that the government spends money training people for jobs they may never get. I do care when the employment of these people is mandated just as I care when the employment of a certain number of migrants is mandated

Hi Clete,

I jump in before somebody else does and claim that discrimination is a form of racism.

Ok, you've won me over. Affirmative action is wrong for the reasons you have outlined. However, that changes nothing when we come to examining the claim that affirmative action is a form of racism. Even though affirmative action is mistaken and governments are ill advised on the matter it makes no difference to the arguments I have outlined previously.

Racism is discrimination based on physical appearance. In other words, some type of physical appearance denotes you belonging to a particular race. It could be skin colour, shape of eyes, type of hair. It can be any number of recognizable physical characteristics which allow us to say that this person belongs to a certain racial group.

The important point is that having an aversion to a particular skin colour or eye shape is not racism. It is just an aversion. It becomes racism if we decide that a particular physical characteristic is due to a persons genetic make up (nothing wrong that so far). Certain genotypes will give rise to recognizable phenotypes.

It is racist when we decide that a persons genotype ( recognized by us a phenotype) is an inhibiting factor when it comes to I.Q. work ethic, lack of morality and the like. In other words, we are saying it is their genes that are the determining or inhibiting factor in all of this. They cannot achieve the same standards as us because they are limited by their genetic make up.

It is a belief that the limiting factors are contained within the persons make up and cannot be changed. This is what racism is all about. Such mistaken beliefs were given freedom of expression in the past when governments institutionalized such beliefs.

Affirmative action today seeks to make amends for the past by discriminating in favour of certain racial and ethnic groups. OK, affirmative action is wrong, mistaken misguided, what every you like to call it. But you cannot call it racist because it says that the inhibiting factors and not within the individual but are contained within the structure of society.

That's why affirmative action cannot be racist.

Tut

[paraclete]

Tut I would love to get into anthropological arguments with you but I don't have the data, I am aware that a study was done which indicated that certain racial groups scored much lower than others. I don't know to what extent this might have been cultural rather than genetic but it did indicate that there might be reasons for suggesting that some groups may not be as bright as others

Whether affirmative action is racist or not depends upon who is making the decisions. It is observable for example that women tend to hire women, discrimination yes, but could this also carry over racially with people more likely to hire their own race for whatever reason