[kutra]

Hi:

I got recessed lights installed in my living room, family room and kitchen (all on the first level). I used them successfully every night. However, on the fourth day, the lights in my two bedrooms and bathroom (all on the second level) stopped working. I checked the circuit breaker and realized that it had tripped. I tried resetting it, but it kept tripping (with a spark) even when there was absolutely nothing plugged in. These two bedrooms and the bathroom on the second level are directly above the living room and the family room where I had recessed lights installed. And the only things plugged into the 15AMP line are two lamps and one music system. The line also provides lighting for the bathroom and hallway.

Two days later I was able to reset the tripper (no idea why and how it worked this time), and the maids were able to vacuum on the second level. And then sometime later in the day, the circuit breaker for the second level rooms tripped again (no idea when and how), and I was unable to reset it. It kept tripping. The recessed lights were switched ON during the day since I was getting the rooms on the lower level painted... they were ON even when the maids were vacuuming the rooms upstairs.

Can you please provide any troubleshooting tips? Does this tripping have to do with the recessed lights or is it just a coincidence since the tripping happened four days (and not immediately) after putting in the recessed lights? The guy who installed the recessed lights does not think it's related to the recessed lights wiring.Is it a bad circuit breaker? My electrical acumen is so-so so any advice in layman terms will be appreciated.

Thanks,
K

[stanfortyman]

Why not call in the guy who wired them?
If he is not available, or is a hack, call someone else.

WHY are you trying to fix this new installation yourself?


... Did you say maids??

[hkstroud]

I'm totally confused. You tell us you had recessed light installed. Then you say the bedroom and bath tripped the circuit breaker. Are the lights on the same circuit as the bedrooms and bath?
You said the only thing on the 15 amp line was two lamps and a music system. Then you say that the line also provides lighting for the bath and hall. Is that the same line?

Try describing your problem again. The newly installed lighting will not be the problem if they function when the breaker is tripped.

[kutra]

Hi stanfortyman:

Thanks for your reply. I am not trying to fix anything. All the recessed lights on the lower level are working fine; it's just the lighting on the second level (where I did not have any work done) that is out. The reason I am posting here is that I am looking for guidance on whether the two could be related. If yes, then the recessed lighting guy should be fixing it for free (since he caused it to stop working), but if the second level lighting going out is a coincidence then I wouldn't mind paying him for the job.

Regards,
K

[kutra]

hkstroud:

Sorry for the confusion. I shall try to answer your questions.

1. "You tell us you had recessed light installed. Then you say the bedroom and bath tripped the circuit breaker. Are the lights on the same circuit as the bedrooms and bath?"
- No, the recessed lights on the lower level are on a different circuit than the bedroom and bath on the second level. The recessed lights have beem working fine since day one.

2. "You said the the only thing on the 15 amp line was two lamps and a music system. Then you say that the line also provides lighting for the bath and hall. Is that the same line?"
- Sorry. What I meant was I have plugged in two lamps and a music system on this same line that also provides lighting for the bath and hall. These things have stopped working after the circuit breaker tripped.

3. Try describing your problem again. The newly installed lighting will not be the problem if they function when the breaker is tripped.
- In a nutshell, the lighting on the second level went out four days after the recessed lights were installed. The circuit breaker cannot be reset. The recessed lights are on a different circuit so they have been working fine. I was wondering if there was any connection between the two since the bedrooms, bath and hall (on the second level) are directly above the rooms (on the first level) where I had recessed lights installed.

Please let me know if you have any more questions. I appreciate your help. I am pretty sure the circuit breaker is not tripping because of overload since I have unplugged everything from that line.

Thanks,
K

[hkstroud]

Obviously you have a short to ground or a short to neutral somewhere. The only way to find it is to start pulling outlets, switches and lights, looking for something wrong. How old is the wiring in that area. Is it old enough to have metal boxes. With an intermittent tripping breaker I would start looking for an outlet (in a metal box) that could have moved slightly when something was plugged or unplugged.

For example, if you have old, small, metal boxes and an unused wiring screw was not screwed down, in other words it sticks out from the outlet, and the outlet moves a little to one side in the box, the screw can come into contact with the box, causing a short to ground.

[stanfortyman]

Well then I was confused as well. I thought there was a direct relation to the new cans and the problem.

[kutra]

stanfortyman and hkstroud:

Thanks for your prompt replies. I shall switch off the main and start opening the outlets and see if I see anything obvious. The house was built in 1980 so I don't know if it has metal boxes. But based on your replies, both of you think the circuit breaker tripping for the lights on the second floor has nothing to do with the installation of recessed lights.

I shall keep you posted. I shall get to this sometime in the afternoon.

Thanks,
K

[donf]

Greetings,

Inside of the main panelboard, are the two circuit breakers adjacent to each other?

Do you know whether the installer piggybacked off one port of the panelboard by using two slim-line breakers in the same slot?

If the breakers are independent of each other, turn off the breaker for upstairs and then start going through every outlet (hole in ceiling or wall) looking for burnt insulation, burnt wiring, loose connections.

Given the gap between installation of the new circuit and the failures I do not suspect a cause and effect situation.

I would suggest you contact the installer and ask exactly what he did, electrically speaking in the pane-board and whether he opened any junction boxes to run the wires to the new locations.

[kutra]

stanfortyman, hkstroud and donf:

I opened every switch outlet servicing the tripped circuit breaker but I did not see any burnt smell/stuff or loose connections or any wire touching the box. I pulled every wire out, tightened the connectors and tucked everything in again. Then tried to reset the circuit breaker, but it tripped again. I turned off the main, then set the circuit breaker to on position. Then, I turned on the main, and the circuit breaker tripped again. Each time it tripped, there was a tiny spark. I even tried turning off the circuit breakers for the first level (recessed lights) and then seeing if I could turn on the tripped circuit breaker (for the second level).. . but that didn't work either. Finally, I also tried replacing the circuit breaker, but I got the same result.

donf:

Here are the answers to your questions. I never know how much info to provide, but here's an attempt.

1. Inside of the main panelboard, are the two circuit breakers adjacent to each other?
- No, they are in different vertical columns of breakers. Even horizontally, they are not in the same row.

2. Do you know whether or not the installer piggybacked off of one port of the panelboard by using two slim-line breakers in the same slot?
- No, he never touched the panel at all. Only once (while working) he tripped the circuit breaker for the rooms on the first level, and asked me to take him down to the basement so he could reset it. I went with him and that's all he did. The basement is locked, so he couldn't have made any change after that without asking me.

3. If the breakers are independent of each other, turn off the breaker for upstairs and then start going through each and every outlet (hole in ceiling or wall) looking for burnt insulation, burnt wiring, loose connections.
- Did that, bit no luck! Please refer to my first paragraph for my troubleshooting attempt.

4. I would suggest you contact the installer and ask exactly what he did, electrically speaking in the pane-board and whether or not he opened any junction boxes to run the wires to the new locations.
- Now, the mention of junction boxes brings this scenario that I did not mention. I had asked the installer to knock down a portion of my wall on the lower level for installing an interior French door. But he did this after he had gotten the wiring done for the recessed lights. While he was knocking down the wall, he came across wires that were going across the wall, so he had to use two junction boxes. I asked him if there was a chance that any of the wires in the junction box were coming from the second level, but he said he didn't think so. He did mention that there was a line in there that he didn't know where it was going, but he had tightened the connectors well. His point was that if bad wiring in the junction boxes was the reason for the second-level lights to fail, even the recessed lights on the first level should have failed at the same time. BTW, I also opened the junction boxes today and tightened all the connectors during my troubleshooting attempt. Are there any specific questions that I should be asking the installer?

Thanks,
K

[parttime]

kutra, have you ruled out a bad breaker?

[hkstroud]

His point was that if bad wiring in the junction boxes was the reason for the second-level lights to fail, even the recessed lights on the first level should have failed at the same time.

I don't follow that logic. If the newly install light burn with the breaker tripped they are on a different circuit and will have nothing to do the circuit the is inoperable. If the newly installed junction boxes are on the same circuit as the newly installed lights the junction boxes will have noting to do with the problem. If the junction boxes are not on the same circuit with the lights, the junction boxes may have something to do with the problem or they may not.

He did mention that there was a line in there that he didn't know where it was going, but he had tightened the connectors well

I don't understand. Are we talking about the line he installed the junction boxes on? If not, what connections is he talking about.

My next step would be to check every outlet and every light in the house to see if it is working. That would just be my way of making sure that I had not missed a non-working outlet or light. Don't forget to check exterior outlets and any garage outlets.

You are not looking for a loose or bad connection, you are looking for a hot wire (usually black) touching a bare end of a neutral (white) or a ground (bare) wire or a metal box that is grounded.

If I found nothing I would next disconnect the hot wire in the junction boxes and cap them with wire nuts. Turn the breaker on. If the junction boxes are on problem circuit and the problem is after the junction boxes, the breaker will not trip.

If not successful I would then start disconnecting the hot wires at each outlet and light. One at a time, starting with the one I thought was farthest from the breaker. Disconnect and cap then try breaker. If breaker trips, reconnect wires and move to next one. When the breaker does not trip you have narrowed the problem to that box.

Now to the junction boxes that were installed. This is related to the problem but only indirectly. Are these junction boxes intended to be buried inside the wall when renovations are complete? If so, that is not allowed. All connections have to be accessible. The reason for that is because problems just like you are currently having can occur. If there is a connection hidden inside a wall you will never find it until you start knocking holes in the walls and tracing wires.

Hopefully no one has buried any junction boxes in the wall on the circuit now in question. Therefore, the problem has to be at an outlet, switch or light.

If you have an attic and the wires for the non working circuit pass through the attic and there is any possibility that squirrels or rats could have chewed through the insulation, you could check that. Given the fact that the circuit did work for a short period it might not be a bad idea to check that first.

Did the person that took out the wall do anything where he might have put a nail through a wire?

Question to ask. Did installer find a multiwire circuit where he tied in the new lights. That would be a circuit where you have two hots (on different breakers) sharing a neutral. Such a circuit could run to ceiling box and have one circuit used for the lights and the other circuit going upstairs. Such a circuit would use a 3-wire cable coming in with a black, red and white wire. That however, is not the only use of a 3-wire cable.

[kutra]

Thanks. That's a lot of troubleshooting to do. I think I will call a licensed electrician and ask him/her to take a look.

Regards,
K