[Wondergirl]

Thank you, HSB, for the post you made about your religious background and evolution. I (and others) can relate to a lot of that. My neighbor is a member of Armstrong's church, so I've read up on that as well as on Mr. Camping's beliefs, pro and con.

[HeadStrongBoy]

HeadStrongBoy: Fact is that every word in the whole Bible is the words of Jesus.

My motivation is to hammer home the concept that the Old Testament IS EQUALLY VALID today.

ScottGem: You don't see the contradiction there? The Old Testament was written before Jesus was born.

Your comment about: "I cannot fathom the depths of blind faith that has gone into this."

It seems clear to me that you regard Jesus as no more than an extraordinary human being of some kind. And that is your privilege. But a careful study of the Bible, believing that it is the word of God, reveals that Jesus is the same God YHWH (or Jehovah) who appears in the so called Old Testament.

So actually there's no contradiction whatsoever. Jesus Himself said: "Before Abraham was, I am." [John 8:58] (YHWH are the Hebrew letters meaning 'I AM.')

You may call my faith blind if you wish, but it's based on a thorough understanding of some parts of the Bible. Probably a lot more than you know.

[ScottGem]

But a careful study of the Bible, believing that it is the word of God, reveals that Jesus is the same God YHWH (or Jehovah) who appears in the so called Old Testament.

So actually there's no contradiction whatsoever. Jesus Himself said: "Before Abraham was, I am." [John 8:58] (YHWH are the Hebrew letters meaning 'I AM.')

That is one way of interpreting the Bible.

You may call my faith blind if you wish, but it's based on a thorough understanding of some parts of the Bible. Probably a lot more than you know.

The keyword there is understanding. You have YOUR understanding of the Bible. Clearly other people have their own understanding of the Bible. Since there is no concrete proof either way, then any belief in the Bible as the word of God and a belief in any God at all is a matter of blind faith. If your faith comforts you, then I am happy for you.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Scottgem: The keyword there is understanding. You have YOUR understanding of the Bible. Clearly other people have their own understanding of the Bible. Since there is no concrete proof either way, then any belief in the Bible as the word of God and a belief in any God at all is a matter of blind faith. If your faith comforts you, then I am happy for you.

There is a certain coherence in what you've said above. And I respect that. But nevertheless... The 153 day period (about 5 months) defined in the Bible as The Day of Judgment will begin May 21, 2011 with a mega-mega earthquake that will rock the whole planet. The likelihood is that it will begin near the International Dateline and follow the sun around the globe for 24 hours until every last place on the Earth has been completely shaken to pieces.

I don't know what your definition of 'comfort' is. But anyone who is comforted by what I've just posted must be either deranged, or they're absolutely certain of their personal salvation. In any case I have loved ones who do not believe any of this. For me it's not comforting to know that they, and perhaps I too, will be destroyed on that day, or the days that follow.

[dwashbur]

Jesus Himself said: "Before Abraham was, I am." [John 8:58] (YHWH are the Hebrew letters meaning 'I AM.')

Since that particular statement is actually in Greek, that's a good trick!

This is one of the funniest things I've seen out of you yet.

The "I Am" in Exodus, in Hebrew, is )HYH (it's hard to transliterate the first letter, since it's a glottal stop that has no equivalent in our alphabet), aleph-he-yod-he. The divine name is yod-he-waw-he, so the two are not the same word. And Jesus actually said, in Greek, EGO EIMI. Well, you might say, this is the Greek equivalent of what's in Exodus. No, it isn't. The Greek translation of the Exodus passage says EGO EIMI HO WN (the W is an approximation of the letter omega), which means "I am the one who is." You and your guy Camping need to learn a bit of Hebrew and Greek before making such ludicrous statements.

[cdad]

There is a certain coherence in what you've said above. And I respect that. But nevertheless... The 153 day period (about 5 months) defined in the Bible as The Day of Judgment will begin May 21, 2011 with a mega-mega earthquake that will rock the whole planet. The likelihood is that it will begin near the International Dateline and follow the sun around the globe for 24 hours until every last place on the Earth has been completely shaken to pieces.

So does that mean you would be willing to sign over your monies and entire estate to me as of the 22nd? Or whatever near future date you expect that there is nothing left ?

[dwashbur]

Here's the question I want answered: What were the signs of EACH seal being broken, as applies SPECIFICALLY to our world? I can look up Revelation 6 as easily as anyone and read the BIBLICAL signs--I want you to tell me why 1988 was the year the 7th seal was broken.

HSB, I'd like to see the answer to this question, as well. I think we all would. How about it?

[450donn]

It is a little amusing :o how you can talk out of one side of your mouth.....and say "simply accepting the teachings of Jesus Christ."

And the other side of your mouth says..."Hey this guy's a real fool. Let's see :cool: if he'll tell me about his personal finances."

I'm just saying...:rolleyes:

So by that sort of dodging the question I have to assume you have signed over a significant portion of your money to this kook?
I do have to hand it to you, you are almost an expert at dodging the questions put to you. But then again people like Jim Jones, and that nut case at Waco were too. So far I have asked you at least twice before, but will try once again. When May22 rolls around and you are still sitting on your butt in front of the computer, will you actually have the nerve to come back to this forum and admit the fallacy of your beliefs?

[HeadStrongBoy]

Scottgem "You and your guy Camping need to learn a bit of Hebrew and Greek before making such ludicrous statements."

That one is my own, with some help from an Assemblies of Yahweh Bible. I do not claim to be an expert in the classic Greek or Hebrew languages. Your knowledge of the specific Greek and Hebrew may be accurate for all I know. But my knowledge is not the issue, and my belief is not based only on that one verse. There are other explicit verses that declare Jesus is YHWH. For example 1 Corinthians 10:4.

[HeadStrongBoy]

450donn "will you actually have the nerve to come back to this forum and admit the fallacy of your beliefs?"

It doesn't take very much nerve to face a smart alec like yourself. All it takes is to assume the same type of ballsy bravado that you seem to exude.

[dwashbur]

Scottgem "You and your guy Camping need to learn a bit of Hebrew and Greek before making such ludicrous statements."

That one is my own, with some help from an Assemblies of Yahweh Bible. I do not claim to be an expert in the classic Greek or Hebrew languages. Your knowledge of the specific Greek and Hebrew may be accurate for all I know. But my knowledge is not the issue, and my belief is not based only on that one verse. There are other explicit verses that declare Jesus is YHWH. For example 1 Corinthians 10:4.

That was actually me, not Scottgem. The deity of Jesus isn't the question. The question was your statement that YHWH is Hebrew for "I am." Thank you for admitting that you made it up and that it's wrong.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Synnen: Here's the question I want answered: What were the signs of EACH seal being broken, as applies SPECIFICALLY to our world? I can look up Revelation 6 as easily as anyone and read the BIBLICAL signs--I want you to tell me why 1988 was the year the 7th seal was broken.

Dwashbur: HSB, I'd like to see the answer to this question, as well. I think we all would. How about it?

Ya know... I just don't feel like working that hard right now. The atmosphere is not particularly to my liking. Why put myself out for a bunch of skeptics. And they're not only skeptical in a rational and scientific way, they also strike me as somewhat arrogant and rude, almost to the point of outright disrespect. I refuse to put forth diligent effort for a bunch of smart a**es.

[HeadStrongBoy]

I admit nothing of the kind. I continue to stand by my interpretation that Jesus is YHWH. And the verse I've quoted about Abraham etc. is sufficient for me.

[cdad]

Ya know....I just don't feel like working that hard right now. The atmosphere is not particularly to my liking. Why put myself out for a bunch of skeptics. And they're not only skeptical in a rational and scientific way, they also strike me as somewhat arrogant and rude, almost to the point of outright disrespect. I refuse to put forth diligent effort for a bunch of smart a**es.

So really what this means is you choose not to participate in debate. It also shows that any disrespect your getting is by your own means. I just love it.

[HeadStrongBoy]

dwashbur

I don't deny that you probably have more technical knowledge than I do.

As such you should realize that YH can be taken as a shortened version of YHWH. Many Biblical Hebrew men's names contain the phoneme YaH. For example Elijah... can be broken down into Eli and YaH. Joel can be analyzed into YaH and El. Isaiah is Isai and YaH. Zechariah is Zechari and YaH. I admit my methodology is amateurish and perhaps repugnant to you. But I do know that YaH is a functional abbreviation of YaHWeH. And until now that little bit of knowledge (sloppy as it may be) has been sufficient for me. I am not trying to earn any doctorates or other fancy degrees. But truth is truth. Like it or not.

[HeadStrongBoy]

califdao3: So really what this means is you choose not to participate in debate. It also shows that any disrespect your getting is by your own means. I just love it.

You can call it any way you like sport.

I don't see it as debate necessarily. Question and answer is not necessarily debate. Question to me implies sincere question. Not baiting someone into making a fool of themselves. That is the refuge of tiny minds and perhaps sports fans.

The end of the world is not something to be 'sported' with. Another word for sporting in this context is mocking. That is your privilege to do, if that's your good pleasure. But as for me... this is in earnest.

[Wondergirl]

You know me well enough by now that you know I don't mock you and have tried to help you out in several ways. I too am interested in the 1988 date, and am wondering how it came to be part of Mr. Camping's reckoning. You may have explained it earlier, but I don't remember in which thread (to go back to look for it). Nineteen eighty-eight was the year I started grad school, but I'm guessing that had nothing to do with how Mr. Camping was calculating.

[cdad]

You can call it any way you like sport.

I don't see it as debate necessarily. Question and answer is not necessarily debate. Question to me implies sincere question. Not baiting someone into making a fool of themselves. That is the refuge of tiny minds and perhaps sports fans.

The end of the world is not something to be 'sported' with. Another word for sporting in this context is mocking. That is your privilege to do, if that's your good pleasure. But as for me...this is in earnest.

Actually no its not in any way earnst. You spout words and have been trying to make others believe that it is but your not even practicing the bible. Yet your making wild claims. So its your choice as to how you follow through on things. But the only player I see so far is you.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Wondergirl: You know me well enough by now that you know I don't mock you and have tried to help you out in several ways. I too am interested in the 1988 date, and am wondering how it came to be part of Mr. Camping's reckoning. You may have explained it earlier, but I don't remember in which thread (to go back to look for it). Nineteen eighty-eight was the year I started grad school, but I'm guessing that had nothing to do with how Mr. Camping was calculating.

To me it's a little complicated because I have not personally worked through it before in a very formal way. As you know I do have a math and engineering background. And until I've formalized something like this I don't feel confident enough to make a presentation of it. I've only just absorbed enough of the data so that I have been able to have an almost intuitive grasp of that date. And I am a somewhat lazy scholar. That's why, if you need to have it immediately, I refer people to Mr. Camping's booklet The End of the Church Age and After. Right now I'm going to take an extended break. After that we'll see.

[dwashbur]

dwashbur

I don't deny that you probably have more technical knowledge than I do.

As such you should realize that YH can be taken as a shortened version of YHWH. Many Biblical Hebrew men's names contain the phoneme YaH. For example Elijah... can be broken down into Eli and YaH. Joel can be analyzed into YaH and El. Isaiah is Isai and YaH. Zechariah is Zechari and YaH. I admit my methodology is amateurish and perhaps repugnant to you. But I do know that YaH is a functional abbreviation of YaHWeH. And until now that little bit of knowledge (sloppy as it may be) has been sufficient for me. I am not trying to earn any doctorates or other fancy degrees. But truth is truth. Like it or not.

I admit nothing of the kind.

That one is my own, with some help from an Assemblies of Yahweh Bible. I do not claim to be an expert in the classic Greek or Hebrew languages.

Yes, YH is sometimes an abbreviated form of The Name. That fact is also meaningless in the present context. And I repeat, the deity of Jesus is not the question. Is Jesus God? Yes. I agree. The question has to do with that specific verse and your assertion that YHWH means "I Am" in Hebrew. Quit trying to dodge. You did acknowledge that the statement was wrong as far as you might know, so why are you backpedaling now? I'm talking about one specific statement you made. You keep trying to make it about the identity of Jesus, which again is NOT the question. If you're going to address my comments, please address them. Don't try to redirect to your own hobby-horses.