[valinors_sorrow]

This is what I think successful growing up into some healthy emotional maturity sounds like:

"I don't need to live up to what anybody else is doing in their life, and I don't have to worry about any standards other than my own."

I'd lay some brownie (or perhaps greenie) points on you but I got the gull derned spread message again, Nos.

[Nosnosna]

This is what I think successful growing up into some healthy emotional maturity sounds like:

"I don't need to live up to what anybody else is doing in their life, and I don't have to worry about any standards other than my own."

I'd lay some brownie (or perhaps greenie) points on you but I got the gull derned spread message again, Nos.

I guess I should wait longer between posting useful messages :D

It always feels strange to respond to the same post twice, but it's for a different reason this time.

Allow me to illustrate my point.

I live with three room mates, all men. We get along because we're of a similar sort of temperment. We're all honest, sensitive, caring guys who are for the most part physically attractive. Not one of us would ever cheat on a woman or lie to her. Out of these four men, we've had maybe a dozen dates over the course of college (most of them by me). I had my girlfriend and another has a girl at the moment (his first in his entire college career) who is over decade older than he is (Geoff, you may be on to something).

A group of friends live down the way - they, like us, are a group of four men living together. They are not so different from us. Same age, similar education choices. The difference is that these guys could give a crap about what a woman thinks or feels. One has had a girlfriend for four years of college and has cheated on her more times than I can count. She has always come back. Another has dated two women at the same time, on more than one occasion! In fact, all four of them have indiscriminently and with abandon treated women like objects designed for their pleasure. They even joke about it. Needless to say, these men blow me and my roomies utterly out of the water in terms of getting women. What am I suppose to learn from this?

I mean, you can say that it isn't so as often as you want! You can even say it's cliche to point it out. But I can only judge the world as I see it.

"Spreading it around" brought to mind a couple of thoughts on some advice for the immediate situation, namely... spread yourselves around a bit.

Engage in a bit of 'disposable dating.' (a terrible sounding term, but disturbingly apt) Go out with a girl, any girl, without any thoughts of a next date or what might/will happen in the future. Have fun with it (not at her expense, obviously), and if no second date materializes, don't worry about it... that wasn't the point of the exercise. This will get you an appreciation for another side of dating than the one you see now... remember that there's no approach to dating that is completely 100% wrong, and that there's always something that you can use to help your normal approach.

This will also help counter a couple of the tendencies that I know I had when I was where you are now:
1) Becoming emotionally invested in a relationship immediately, rather than having it develop over time. This issue leads to being overly bitter about the end of a short relationship.
2) Becoming emotionally invested while working up the nerve to ask a girl out, also known as falling in love with the idea of a girl rather than the girl herself. This leads to obsession, and increased difficulty in getting up the nerve to ask her out for fear of rejection, and soon you're in a really bad place.

[LBP]

I hear what you're saying and I know I'm living in extremes at the moment. It just seems like there's this wall of deception out there that no matter how much you don't like it you'll have to work with in order to make things work. Like the social gaming that I mentioned before.

I like your points, Nosnosna. But it does happen, to both men and women, that a partner will encourage you to invest yourself emotionally and then do a complete 180. The ex I'm referring to, for example, even went so far as to talk to me about apartments where we might live in New York City, told me that I was her other half, etc etc. I'm sure you know the sort of thing I'm talking about. Then, nothing! I mean, what do you do when that happens?

Not let it get to that point, I suppose. Hold yourself in reserve. I thought a matter of months would be suffecient, but I think a year or more sounds far more appropriate. Well, in any event, I've really enjoyed this discussion and it's certainly given me a lot to think about if nothing else. Thanks a lot, all of you!

[valinors_sorrow]

Engage in a bit of 'disposable dating.' (a terrible sounding term, but disturbingly apt) Go out with a girl, any girl, without any thoughts of a next date or what might/will happen in the future. Have fun with it (not at her expense, obviously), and if no second date materializes, don't worry about it... that wasn't the point of the exercise.

I really like this idea even if I am not sure I like the terms used LOL. In fact, I use this very same approach when looking for a job. I apply at places I have very little intention of hiring into so I can get in some "practice" interviewing. It really helps me polish up my approach. Life does allow a little "dress rehersal" if you are creative enough! :p

I do hear LBP's legit complaint. The lines between fantasy and reality have been seriously blurred and culturally we have justified more and more selfishness and dishonesty. When enough people begin to operate out of a kind of jadedness and defend themselves by putting on an act (which is essentially lying), the genuine and nice people feel like they get left holding the bag. I grew up in a seriously dysfunctional family of amazing liars who don't really know they lie LOL. They taught me to develop discernment with people, among other things. My brother has been married seven times, I am not kidding -- he and his ex's could easily be several Oprah or Dr Phil shows in themselves! So I know, for me, how to be much slower to believe everything people say. I like to let time, their actions and their friends/family confirm how truthful they are being with me.

These days, too many people are in denial too (denial = don't even notice I am lying). I like to think I have a kind of healthy skepticism without cynicism to it. I know I am genuine but the rest of you will just have to prove it. Its called the "we'll see" approach and I recommend it to anyone, especially those who are dating. S-l-o-o-o-o-o-o-w down.. . Because lies do not endure the test of time!

And you're welcome LBP, it was a good question!

[Nosnosna]

I hear what you're saying and I know I'm living in extremes at the moment. It just seems like there's this wall of deception out there that no matter how much you don't like it you'll have to work with in order to make things work. Like the social gaming that I mentioned before.

I like your points, Nosnosna. But it does happen, to both men and women, that a partner will encourage you to invest yourself emotionally and then do a complete 180. The ex I'm refering to, for example, even went so far as to talk to me about apartments where we might live in New York City, told me that I was her other half, etc etc. I'm sure you know the sort of thing I'm talking about. Then, nothing! I mean, what do you do when that happens?

Not let it get to that point, I suppose. Hold yourself in reserve. I thought a matter of months would be suffecient, but I think a year or more sounds far more appropiate. Well, in any event, I've really enjoyed this discussion and it's certainly given me a lot to think about if nothing else. Thanks a lot, all of you!

Oh, I've been there, absolutely.

What do you do when that happens? You get bitter, you doubt yourself, and you hate her. And then after a while you get over it... took me the better part of a year on the big one, and that included a couple of short-term relationships that suffered because they were still in the fallout. Turns out the girl who did that is one of my closest friends now.

You don't gain anything by holding yourself in reserve... sure, it keeps you from getting hurt, but it also ends up hurting the people you date from then on. You learn from it, absolutely, and you get better at reading signs. Most ugly breakups happen because one person has a gradual cooling of their side of the relationship, which goes unmentioned by them and unnoticed by their partner until it gets to be too extreme to be dealt with rationally. With one of these under your belt (and, more importantly, time to look back nostalgically at the relationship once you've gotten over most of the bitter), you'll be able to better see it coming in the future, and be able to mitigate it somewhat when it does happen.

...

And then you have some partners who are actually manipulative psychos. Unfortunately, no amount of experience will keep you from ever meeting one of them :)

[rol]

This is a very interesting thread, Like allheart I am AMAZED to see the amount of nice guys on this board and every day a new one coming with the "i need space" question...

I am one of those girls who dated jerks throughout most of the 20s..
After having had a serious relationship from 18-21 (when I look back now he was possibly the most husband material of the whole lot but I was young then so did not know it! ) ,
Ive been doing a lot of reflecting recently and wondering why I dated so many jerks and actually believed they would lead to a long lasting relationship..!

In fact I believe its because I was unready to commit myself that unsubconsiously I chose guys who I knew were not ready to commit either..

So guys maybe this is the whole problem... what kind of girls are you choosing?

In the late 20s I decided it was time to find a more serious ,Sensitive type of guy.When he told me he loved me after 1 month I nearly fell down as I had not heard that line for more than 8 years!

Now another thing I've seen recently is that all my female friends are with younger guys. Ive about 5 friends going out with guys up to a decade younger... is this because younger guys want to find a girl to commit and these are the girls who are 30 or more?
Are younger girls just not ready to commit and that is why they are choosing jerks?

[lilkimintraning]

Okay this was brought up in another post by Wildcat. I didn't want to take away from the original poster but this has been on my mind all day and I just want to get some other feedback on it. The OP was a mistress and as WC points out we've been seeing a lot of that here lately. Here's what WC said..



EXACTLY! Wildcat is dead on correct. But my question is why? It almost seems like it should be the other way around.

I don't think it's any secret that women are better at reading, using, and applying emotions then men are. Women are emotional and use that to their advantage over men. This board is field with men who get caught up being played by women and there emotional games. I know I myself have been caught more than once. I am also a highly sensitive male.

Yet I would never get involved with a married woman. Even for me and some of the situations I've been in where I was thinking emotionally and not rationally I realize there is a limit. Marriage is a limit.

So I guess my question is how can such a large number of women who should be more emotionally aware of a married man's intentions because of their higher acuteness to emotional games and situations get caught up in this problem?

Then on the flip side, why do men, quite honestly like myself very emotional, and some of the other posters here who are just not as emotional as me but still men. In other words they have no advantage over reading a woman emotionally like a woman can read a man. Why are men not caught up in this situation where the women is cheating and he is blinded so much he can't see what's going on. Because if you look at our male posters, many of them are blinded by a woman's emotional games and even know she's having relations with other guys but they act like the mistresses do. The only difference is their isn't a marriage involved.

God I hope this makes some kind of sense. In my brain it makes perfect sense, or at least my question does but I'm not sure I'm translating it here well.

In short my question is why isn't this the other way around, why do emotionally “scarce” men not fall for this and emotionally “intelligent” women do on such a great number?

U know I'm 17 years old and comeing from me may not mean anything to you but I may be able to answer this one. My mom a few years ago meat some guy over the internet and my mom and dad wear marryed. So I busted my mom and my dad didn't want to beleave me because comeing from a 10 year old doesn't mean nothen so I got into her computer and showed my dad everything because ownestlly I don't like females not because of what my mom did to us. The guy told her he was getting 6 million dollors because he got a one little peace taken out of his finger from work little does the stooped knows its 1 thous for every nuckle well any way It some times happens like that or marryed women are eather not happy with there husbans they could be getting abused or something for men the way I beleave they look at it. They want something new so they cheat or the women is a compleat CRAZY and daserves it. Yea its hard to find someone because I see a few people myself go thew it I'm sorry I can't help with that but. Just stay away from marryed people makes to meny PROBLEMS and you don't want that. AND the thing you ask because GUYS FIND IT SEXY AS THEY WOULD SAY and its kind of odd how that happens. I guess it just they way we are :confused: And its OK to be emoc yourself because it just shows you have a heart and for the women who play good men NEED A NEW BRAIN or something because it makes not sents why should they do it they wouldn't like it done to them. " THERE IMMATURE " they don't know what they want. But for some reson good men finish last I know that sucks but it seems to be the truth

[NeedKarma]

So guys maybe this is the whole problem...what kind of girls are you choosing?

I dated a lot before getting married at 35. ALL of the women I dated were intelligent and kind. I could not stand dating an airhead who thought her makeup/shoes/purse/cellphone were important status symbols or who want a guy who has the fancy car (my car doesn't define who I am). Plus she had to be kind: kind to others, empathetic, not-self-centered. But above all I can't stand any game-playing as I do not do it to them. In my view the game-playing reveals immaturity.

At the end of it all I have a great wife, 2 great kids and a nice life. I am putting my wilder side (French Canadian 'joie-de-vivre':)) on hold for a while for the sake of raising our kids.

[Geoffersonairplane]

Are younger girls just not ready to commit and that is why they are choosing jerks?

I think so... My ex told her family who were upset about the breakup that she was too young to be tied down, that she wished she met me later on in life, that she was too young... Which she was.

This suggests to me that she knew I was ready for commitment, that I was husband material or at the very least serious relationship material but she was just not ready for all that and neither was I at her age. I think I chose the wrong woman? But maybe not, maybe the right woman at the wrong time. Perhaps it is a question of timing.

[rol]

Yeah I think its all just a question of timing and maturity...
Your ex reminds me a bit of myself at that age... just not ready, I'm sure she will go from jerk to jerk now and in the 30s wake up wondering how did I get here...

[Geoffersonairplane]

yeah i think its all just a question of timing and maturity...
Your ex reminds me a bit of myself at that age...just not ready, im sure she will go from jerk to jerk now and in the 30s wake up wondering how did i get here.....

Perhaps young women in their early 20's need to go through some toads to either meet their prince or realise what a prince is...

I just hope I was not one of the toads>>>LOL

[rol]

That's it!
Eventually she will look back and realise it, but she will also know that she was not ready at that time.

[wontbez]

I guess what I'm saying is when it comes to emotions women are better at using them and understanding them then men are. Time and again we see men here on this site and even in life around us that get fixated on a girl and can't let it go. She can dump him and go out with another person and he'd still take her back in a heartbeat. She'd repeat the pattern and keep him always hanging on. Yet most of the time the woman is single.

However if that situation is reversed and the guy keeps the woman hanging on, many times the guy is married. In other words a woman won't necessarily let marriage stop her from getting involved or really what I mean is EMOTIONALLY wrapped up into him.

And my point is that despite what popular culture and many women might say about men, we do have feelings and we do get emotional and in reality we have a difficult time letting go or getting out of relationships. But those are primarily with single women. Married women don't give us the same emotional hangups that single women do. However, single women do get caught up by the married man. And since women are "emotionally smarter" then men, to me it would seem that they should not fall for a married mans lies and emotional games like guys would and indeed do with single women.

Just not married women.

Speak for yourslef, I think a married women can and do string single guys along all the time, especially when it started as just sex but the guy starts falling in love and the women will say anything to make sure the sex doesn't stop. I'm actually going to start a post on that topic.

[chuff]

Speak for yourslef, I think a married women can and do string single guys along all the time, especially when it started off as just sex but the guy starts falling in love and the women will say anything to make sure the sex doesn't stop. I'm actually going to start a post on that topic.

I never said they couldn't. I think if you reread what I wrote you'll see I was speaking for the majority of cases, not every case. The majority of the time that is what takes place. Just because you as a male participated in an affair in which you became emotionally attached doesn't make it "common" or as common as a single woman getting attached to a married man. That is common in society and is a common issue here at this board.

[wontbez]

I never said they couldn't. I think if you reread what I wrote you'll see I was speaking for the majority of cases, not every case. The majority of the time that is what takes place. Just because you as a male participated in an affair in which you became emotionally attached doesn't make it "common" or as common as a single woman getting attached to a married man. That is common in society and is a common issue here at this board.

Guess I was just looking to get into the mindset of a married women who does this to a single guy, sorry if I came across as lashing out at you.

[chuff]

Guess I was just looking to get into the mindset of a married women who does this to a single guy, sorry if I came across as lashing out at you.

Amazingly, you are not the first to lash out at my unique perspective.