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Curlyben, your heading contains the title "Admin & Wine Expert..."
I assume that means you're one of the administators at Ask Me. Is that correct ? Allow me to clarify an apparent misunderstanding of some very basic English definitions. [1] Brush - Off: an abrupt dismissal or snub. [2] Explanation: the act of making understandable, elucidating, expounding, clarifying, etc. Do you see the difference between [1] and [2] ? |
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 Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Allow me to clarify an apparent misunderstanding of some very basic English definitions.
[1] Brush - Off: an abrupt dismissal or snub. [2] Explanation: the act of making understandable, elucidating, expounding, clarifying, etc. Do you see the difference between [1] and [2] ? |
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Quoting Curlyben:
"And your point is ?" Answer: Apparently wasted. But I don't mind that much. You see after all I'm still here. P.S. Where can I find and download icons that move similar to yours ? Very spooky effect. |
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You aren't saved by what by you do or what you don't do. You are saved by GRACE through FAITH, this is NOT of YOURSELF, but a GIFT from GOD. Ephesians 2:8 I don't know about you guys, but where I'm come from, you don't earn GIFTS! Here is an article that I think sums it up. I encourage you to read it from start to finish.
One of the most hotly debated points of doctrine (apart from the timing of the Rapture) among Christians of different denominations is the question of eternal security. Specifically, can a believer who was saved fall away and lose his salvation? Is there an unforgiveable sin for which a believer can be condemned? Those who would argue yes are just as sincere in their doctrinal view as those who take the other side, and both sides have Scripture to support their view. I thought it might be good to take a look at the Scriptures used by those say the Bible teaches that a believer can lose his salvation. In 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 Paul writes, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." Is this referring to the falling away of part of the True Church? First, let's look at what falling away means in the context of the believer. The term 'fall away' was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a 'falling away'. (see Matt 26:31-35) Obviously, this is not a loss of salvation. For the true believer it may involve a temporary period of 'backsliding' (an OT term not found in the New) or time of being out of fellowship with God. There ARE times when for one reason or another, the believer is having difficulty in his Christian walk. But a true believer would not however deny what they believe in their heart, even though their walk at that moment might not reflect what they believe. But note that even though Jesus said they would 'fall away', in the very same context, he also said to Peter that he had prayed that his faith would not fail and when he returned, to strengthen his brethren. (Luke 22:32) In other words, true believers may fall at times but their faith does not fail because Jesus intercedes for them. Concerning this intercession we are told, "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us" (Romans 11:2) We need that intercession most when we are struggling, yet some believers will argue that it is when we need the Lord most that He abandons us to our sin. See also John 17:6-12 concerning this intercession by Jesus for His believers. In this High Priestly prayer, Jesus makes it clear that the ones that God has given Him he keeps safe. And Romans 8:32-34 cites Jesus' intercession as proof we cannot be separated from the love of Christ. The 'great apostasy' of the last days is not referring to saved believers, but is instead referencing the kind of doctrinal dumbing down that would allow an openly homosexual Episcopalian priest to be elevated to the bishopric, or the attack on the Boy Scouts for not admitting homosexuals. Jesus said this time would be like the days of Noah and Lot - "every imagination of the thoughts of [men's] heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5) with rampant homosexuality (Genesis 19:8). Hebrews 6:4-6 is often used to 'prove' a believer can lose salvation. It says, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." It appears on the surface to say that a believer can lose his salvation, but if you read it closely, it teaches the exact opposite. It teaches that the believer cannot be renewed to repentance (born again - again!) because it would require crucifying the Lord again, and 'putting Him to an open shame'. If this passage teaches that a believer could lose his salvation, then it also teaches that believer is forever damned and beyond repentance. You cannot interpret 'impossible' in this passage to mean anything except 'impossible'. And the 'open shame' Paul says it would expose the Lord to is that He failed to keep all that God had given Him, as He said in His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane. Then there is the passage in Hebrews 10:26-27 which says, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." First, the book of Hebrews was written TO the Hebrews (1st century Jewish believers). That doesn't mean it is irrelevant to the Church, but there is a context here. For a Jew to become a Christian in the first century was a death sentence as far as their relationship with their family was concerned. They lost any right to an inheritance and came under extreme pressure (including physical persecution) to leave Christ and go back to Judaism. And that is what many did, even though for a while they looked like true believers. The 'wilful sin" mentioned in verse 26 is linked to the verse before it because it starts with for if.. . The verse before it is speaking of leaving the assembly of believers. The 'wilful sin' that this passage talks about is leaving Christ and going back to Judaism. Under the Judaism they were going back to, there no longer remained a sacrifice for sin (vs 26) (because God didn t accept animal sacrifices anymore after Jesus had died for all sin, for all time.) Another commonly misinterpeted Scripture refers to 'a branch that doesn t bare fruit will be cast into the fire.' 1 Corinthians 1 Cor 3:15 clearly states that for a true believer, even if their work is burned up (ie no fruit) they are still saved, but as one who escapes 'as by fire'. They are in Heaven, but they have no rewards. Scripture never contradicts Scripture. Another proof text used to prove salvation is dependent on doing good works is James 2:26; "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." This is another verse that is purported to prove one thing, but in fact, proves the opposite. By definition, one who is saved cannot have 'dead' faith, since it is their faith that has saved them in the first place. Someone may have a belief, or head knowledge that certain facts are true without giving themselves over to that belief. James 2:19 says, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Believing in God is not the same has having faith in Christ. Dead faith is simply a head knowledge that cannot save. Consider this; I know all about George Bush, but he doesn't know me -- that is to say, I have no personal relationship with George Bush, but I believe he is the president. There are many who know all about Jesus, and might even profess to believe He is God, but have no personal relationship with Him. Works arising from that kind of relationship is by definition, dead, since it bears no eternal fruit. The Scriptures clearly establish that a genuine conversion will stand no matter how great the adversity. "Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down" (Psalms 37:24) The Apostle Paul told believers to put on the whole armor of God. "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." (Ephesians 6:13-17). On the battlefield, the most effective way to dispatch an opponent is to go for a head shot. Paul refers to the 'helmet of salvation' -- if you know you are saved, eternally, the enemy can never take you out of the game. He can't use guilt to stop you from witnessing. He can't convince you that aren't really saved. He can't convince you that you are unworthy to carry the Gospel to the lost. In short, he can't take that 'head shot' that would render a believer useless to the cause of Christ. In these last days, the Scripture says that Satan will pull out all the stops, 'because he knows he hath but a short time'. Those of us who are properly equipped with the truth, the knowledge that we are covered by the righteousness of Christ, are prepared with a knowledge of the Gospel, which we are prepared to share in peace, secure in our faith and certain of our standing before Him are formidable opponents in the battle for the souls of men. "And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." (Romans 8:27) The battle has been joined. And our victory is assured. Don't let anyone rob you of your weapons. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32) |
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Nrice
The battle has been joined. And our victory is assured.
Don't let anyone rob you of your weapons. Though ultimately, the battle is not ours, but it is the Lord's. "And all this assembly shall know that Jehovah saveth not with sword and spear. For the battle is Jehovah's, and He will give you into our hands." 1 Samuel 17:47 |
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To quote the Apostle Paul: Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. |
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Hi Headstrong: To quote a guy much wiser than I: “It is He who calls it Eternal life. If it can possibly have an end, it is not eternal. If it is everlasting, it must last forever. When He says eternal he means just that. We need not argue. We need not cite cases. We need not quote other passages. One clear positive declaration of His and the case is closed. We leave the rest to a mind far greater than our own.” The Seven great I ams Archibald Campbell, Christian Literature Crusade, 1968, page 97. |
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Are we really running our whole country on a belief that everyone who has faith will have eternal life, no matter what they do? And that the only punishment for sin by a saved person, is earthly punishment in the form of accidents and illness?
Then why do people trust only Christians to elected office? Not because we can expect more ethical decisions and behavior, but that a Christian leader may protect the country from earthly disasters and dangers? I wonder if the public in general understands this. That's why the Christians want to whole country to be Christian, so our country will be blessed by good luck and protected. Remember when that Christian leader (Falwell?) blamed Katrina on New Orleans being sinful? By this set of beliefs, he was serious. I think the country does not understand the attitude of a politician like George W. Bush, who said he was saved. Then he never cared if he started a war, made poor people suffer, or spent the country into bankruptcy. He was saved, so he didn't care. He also believed he was anointed by God to be President. This is a very screwed up belif system. I doubt if most people even are aware of it. No wonder we are in such an illogical mess as a country. We are being governed by people with irrational ideas about hwo reality works. |
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Originally Posted by sophiacat1
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Hi Sophia There are many who claim to be Christians but are not saved. The Bible makes it clear that those who have truly been saved will be a new creation: 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Jesus said: Matthew 7:21-23 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. |
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Originally Posted by saintjoan
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dwashbur said: Not all Christians who mess up are not really saved. We're still human, so we do dumb things.
Our salvation depends entirely upon God choosing us, and upon Him having made payment for our sins. That includes justification and what some on this site have called sanctification. The way I understand the word sanctification (it means to be made holy), there is no difference between sanctification and justification. When a person is justified (has all their sins forgiven), they are in effect made holy (sanctified). However all of that activity has occurred only in their soul existence. Their body remains under the law of sin and death. That is why a conflict exists in the Christian who has been born again. All of Romans chapter 7 speaks about this conflict. |
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Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. That grace is available to whosoever will: Revelation 22:17 And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. There are carnal believers (1 Corinthians 3:1), who will make it into heaven. (1 Corinthians 3:15). However we should expect those who have truly been saved to show a change in their lives because they have been saved. |
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saintjoan said: That grace is available to whosoever will:
Revelation 22:17 And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. |
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Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
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dwashbur said: So explain please how the two may be reconciled.
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Hey Headstrongboy: Our final authority must be the Bible not John Calvin: A wiser man than you and I said: Charles Spurgeon: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you” said Peter. As John Bunyan puts it – one man might have stood up in the crowd and said, “But I helped hound him to the cross!” “Repent and be baptized every one of you” “But I drove the nails into His hands!” saith one. “Everyone of you,” says Peter. “But I pierced his side!” said another. “Everyone of you,” said Peter. “And I put my tongue into my cheek and stared at His nakedness and said, ‘If He be the Son of God, let him come down from the cross.’” “Every one of you,” said Peter. “Repent, and be baptized every one of you.” I do feel grieved at many of our Calvinistic brethren; They know nothing about Calvinism, I am sorry to say, for never was any man more caricatured by his professed followers than John Calvin. Many are afraid to preach from Peter’s text. “Repent and be baptized every one of you.” When I do it, they say, “He is unsound.” Well if I am unsound on this point, I have all the Puritans with me – the whole bunch of them almost without exception.” Hyper-Calvinism, a false doctrine, Dr. John R. Rice, Sword of the Lord Publishers, 1970, page 15 |
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saintjoan said: Hey Headstrongboy: Our final authority must be the Bible not John Calvin:
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Charles Spurgeon is not a church father. Neither is John Calvin. All men are called to salvation. We have the responsibility to respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, as revealed in Ezekiel 33. Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Glad to see that you are not a Calvinist. |
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saintjoan said: All men are called to salvation. We have the responsibility to respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, as revealed in Ezekiel 33. Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
However, to get the complete picture we should also look at Jeremiah 17:9. "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it ?" Such a heart is not capable of repenting, by it's own power. The solution to this apparently impossible predicament is found in Ezekiel 36:26. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." When God has first done that... then the individual will be able to repent, and believe, and do all the other good works expected of a new creature. |
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